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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#111

Post by vondur »

julianeon wrote: post #47
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

I feel like it's worth pointing out here, for Americans who don't know better (no blame implied), that the French have one of the best mathematical pipelines in the world. They have almost as many Nobels (13 vs. 11) despite having 1/5 the population. Guardian article about them here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/may/31/europa-french-... So please don't think France is a backwater that just doesn't know how…

I don't believe anyone here thinks France is an Academic backwater. France has had some of the most brilliant scientist/mathematicians since the 1600's.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#112

Post by AnimalMuppet »

dang wrote: post #21
droithomme wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ok, that's enough now. Since you clearly don't want to use HN as intended, I've banned this account.

My compliments on your patience in the face of some really vile personal attacks. So far as I could tell, you never lost your temper, and you gave far more grace than seemed deserved.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#113

Post by ummwhat »

lsh123 wrote: post #95
ummwhat wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of programs exactly like that in the US.

Not at that level, I have 3 kids of various ages from elementary school to college ;) There is a HUGE difference in the programs from who is selected into the program to program goals.

For the sake of example, how was Soviet Science high school different from Stuyvesant/Brooklyn Tech/Bronx school of Science? (Just to name the ones I know of).

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#114

Post by aeonsky »

p1esk wrote: post #59
rdiddly wrote: post #39

I mean, could it be as simple as "Learning math is more important to Russians than to Americans?" And before you dismiss this as simplistic, consider everything that's competing for attention with "learning math." What things are Americans either preoccupied with or beset with, that Russians esp. Soviet Russians, weren't? I'm thinking, the profit motive. Particularly as concerns textbook publishers. And parents who n…

No, learning math was never more important to an average Russian than it was to an average American. An average Russian has never knew math any better than an average American. Source: attended school in both countries.

I guess its just anecdotes at this point, not data. But all my peers and friends from different schools, were solving quadratic equations in 4th grade in USSR/Russia. This was early 90's. I then studied in Canadian and US high schools and it took me until 9th grade to start learning any new math again at school.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#115

Post by Bayart »

c-smile wrote: post #67

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…

>University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from "paying user" side.

I guess Western Europe isn't part of the West anymore.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#116

Post by telchar »

jimmaswell wrote: post #64
chii wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data it's interesting that some academic approaches focus on the theoretical framework and conceptual depth, with the underlying assumption that the student would "get" it once the fundamentals are understood. The other approach, mostly in the asian schools, teach rote and speed in mechanical/mental manipulation. For example, a student would do 1000 qu…

The rote learner learned nothing more than the ability to regurgitate a mechanical process while the academic learner learned understanding, in my view. You have to work through some examples to solidify it but that should be totally secondary to understanding the meaning and concepts. Like a physics teacher of mine put it, rote math learning is like teaching sea lions to honk horns for fish - students give the right…

In my experience, it's easy to think one has understanding without actually understanding. The process of applying that tentative understanding to a problem to test it is essential to figuring out what the flaws are in the tentative understanding so that real understanding can eventually be achieved. Once it gets to the point that a person can crank through problems without significant errors, then I think further problems don't do much good except as an occasional refresher.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#117

Post by c-smile »

eigenvector wrote: post #86
c-smile wrote: post #67

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS). Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader. In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome s…

In Canadian universities you typically have 3 to 5 levels of mathematics courses for students specializing in something other than math. The highest level of rigour would only be found in the courses for mathematicians, with physics, engineering and computer science students studying many of the same concepts but less rigorously and with comparatively little attention to deriving results from first principles. Was th…

First 3 years all students of all Sciences (Math included) and all Engineering specialties were getting the same (mandatory) set of courses. Only rest 2 or 3 years were variable.

As of Canadian Universities. UBC in particular.

Anecdotical evidence, but still.

Friend of mine, owner of small factory here in Vancouver, asked me once to assemble him software department specifically from Eastern Europe people. On question "why?" he answered - they are engineers first and programmers only second, and UBC makes CS people.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#119

Post by agumonkey »

chii wrote: post #33
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

> It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data it's interesting that some academic approaches focus on the theoretical framework and conceptual depth, with the underlying assumption that the student would "get" it once the fundamentals are understood. The other approach, mostly in the asian schools, teach rote and speed in mechanical/mental manipulation. For example, a student would do 1000 qu…

Note that I don't mind conceptual depth. But if you fail to bootstrap then you're stuck. Calculation kinda helped me connecting the notation with simpler things and bring back confidence and gradual progress

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#120

Post by jimmaswell »

wonnage wrote: post #89
jimmaswell wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rote learner learned nothing more than the ability to regurgitate a mechanical process while the academic learner learned understanding, in my view. You have to work through some examples to solidify it but that should be totally secondary to understanding the meaning and concepts. Like a physics teacher of mine put it, rote math learning is like teaching sea lions to honk horns for fish - students give the right…

Everyone can learn to solve equations quickly if they’re forced to do it 1000 times. They might forget it the day after the test, the might not know why they’re doing anything, but you can be damn certain you know what you’re doing if just for that brief window in time. It’s also clear if you’re succeeding or failing. I’ve noticed that private school parents in the US seem to hate homework. The kids get three optiona…

> They might forget it the day after the test, the might not know why they’re doing anything, but you can be damn certain you know what you’re doing if just for that brief window in time.

What was the point then? It's a complete waste of time in that scenario.

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