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Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

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Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#61

Post by zozbot234 »

agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

> It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts.

"¿Por qué no los dos?" as they say? One can also detail how to "calculate" and "manipulate concrete data" in a rigorously correct way, involving precise concepts and perhaps some theorems. (Though an overemphasis on theorems is not necessarily good, either. Sometimes it can even signal a lack of attention to the actual "rules of the game" one is ultimately supposed to be studying, while a focus on direct manipulation would perhaps tend to avoid this. A good balance of the two styles is perhaps best.)

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#62

Post by batter »

rdiddly wrote: post #39

I mean, could it be as simple as "Learning math is more important to Russians than to Americans?" And before you dismiss this as simplistic, consider everything that's competing for attention with "learning math." What things are Americans either preoccupied with or beset with, that Russians esp. Soviet Russians, weren't? I'm thinking, the profit motive. Particularly as concerns textbook publishers. And parents who n…

Soviet/Russia never considered human as something important. Russian management way sharper in moves and less humane. Soviets proved to people that thousands can be killed - rich, clever, creative, dissidents or you were just unlucky. They showed life doesn't worth anything. But Communist Party and ideology is important. Who cares how hard is it for you to study, Communist Party decides who can publish, which books you can read. You didn't decide anything. This system is still alive and works. It just slightly changed outside to pretend to be democracy.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#63

Post by jnbiche »

virmundi wrote: post #20

America did this too. There was the New Math trend in the 50-60s which feels like common core. Here's a comedy song about it from that era. https://youtu.be/UIKGV2cTgqA

New Math was very far from Common Core. New Math included generous coursework on abstract algebra and discrete mathematics, both of which are almost entirely ignored in Common Core. Common Core is carefully considered, but pretty traditional.

Common Core is still a good curriculum for the minimal level of math US society wants primary and secondary students to learn. But it's not nearly expansive and innovative as New Math was.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#64

Post by jimmaswell »

chii wrote: post #33
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

> It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data it's interesting that some academic approaches focus on the theoretical framework and conceptual depth, with the underlying assumption that the student would "get" it once the fundamentals are understood. The other approach, mostly in the asian schools, teach rote and speed in mechanical/mental manipulation. For example, a student would do 1000 qu…

The rote learner learned nothing more than the ability to regurgitate a mechanical process while the academic learner learned understanding, in my view. You have to work through some examples to solidify it but that should be totally secondary to understanding the meaning and concepts. Like a physics teacher of mine put it, rote math learning is like teaching sea lions to honk horns for fish - students give the right memorized answer and get the grades without really learning anything.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#65

Post by kabacha »

seibelj wrote: post #35
thaumasiotes wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Soviet body builders only used free weights and a pull-up bar. You don’t need anything but that to get big muscles. You may also need steroids, which Soviet body builders definitely used.

If you think only Soviet body builders were juicing, you are sorely mistaken. FYI I am the furthest thing from an ideological defender of the Soviet system as you will find. I am just stating some truths.

I think it really depends on the time period. During the beginning of decline (past 70s until collapse) very few people really believed in Soviet ideologies and corruption was pretty much at the core of soviet lifestyle.

Though before that I could definitely see any sort of doping would be very un-Soviet.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#66

Post by chestervonwinch »

tathougies wrote: post #34
agumonkey wrote: post #12

I can only assume but culture makes things very different. I often said that French abstract algebra books stopped me from learning for 10 years (after many serious attempts). One book from Garreth Williams unlocked 80% of my issues. The shocking part was the approach. It was very operational, you calculate, you manipulate concrete data. In French books it's all theorems and concepts. Learning curve to make a Haskell…

I dunno, Rudin, the most popular abstract algebra textbook in English, is quite dense.

"popular"

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#67

Post by c-smile »

I was comparing my math books (from Soviet university, Physics and Applied Math) and my son's from Canadian university (CS).

Huge difference to be honest. Canadian ones (same as in US I think) were more like belletristic texts written with the goal to give basics without too much thought needed by the reader.

In contrast you cannot approach Soviet text math book without serious thinking effort. You need to overcome some mental barrier to get into. If you cannot do that then this is not yours - choose something else.

I believe that is because of different motivations of high-school systems. University on the West gets its money directly from students so they motivated to attract and keep as many students as possible - so books are entry level to do not scare students. Barrier here is established from "paying user" side.

In USSR universities were getting money from state/society as education was free so they must maintain those barriers so only those who went through were there. Barrier here is from "service provider" side.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#68

Post by zozbot234 »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #26
ngold wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank's for the insight. I struggled with geography until I discovered history...again, after high school of course. I still struggle with algebra, so I look forward to checking your suggestions out. I think my problem as a kid was I was just hyper, all the time. I could cut wood outside for 10 hours but couldn't sit still for a moment.

Child labour is an untapped resource. If it were somehow possible to let kids chop wood for 10hrs, as the need arose, or whatever, and then they could go / go back to school when they were ready. Certainly would have helped me a lot.

Agreed. There is a severe lack of mindfulness and focus in modern education, and strenuous physical exercise like chopping wood can be a real mindfulness-workout.

Re: Why are Soviet math textbooks so hardcore in comparison to US textbooks? (2017)

#70

Post by throw1234651234 »

mafm wrote: post #60
rdiddly wrote: post #39

I mean, could it be as simple as "Learning math is more important to Russians than to Americans?" And before you dismiss this as simplistic, consider everything that's competing for attention with "learning math." What things are Americans either preoccupied with or beset with, that Russians esp. Soviet Russians, weren't? I'm thinking, the profit motive. Particularly as concerns textbook publishers. And parents who n…

I think technical education in the soviet union was a lot stronger than it was in the free world, at least in the 20th century. When I was 16, I was enrolled in the top high-school maths units in the early 1980s in Australia. Maths was about 1/3 of the academic contact hours and the curriculum was pretty standard across all the Australian states. A family from the Ukraine somehow managed to immigrate to Australia and…

My 3rd grade Ukrainian math education carried me through 10th grade ("Accelerated" classes in a 36/36 school district). An anecdote, but basically I fell behind my Ukrainian peers very early. I remember coming back and a friend who was younger than me was already doing calculus when we weren't.
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