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Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

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Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#491
post #438

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Something I've been wondering for a while is how long Facebook et al would let conspiracy stuff run wild once it came close to damaging their own interests. It's one thing to look at a forest fire from a distance and say "it's people's right to play with matches", quite another thing when it reaches your own office. Neither Facebook staff nor management are immune to the consequences of a pandemic. There is a legitim…

The problem is relying on FB as the arbiter of truth. Ideas that sounded insane a few weeks back, and might have been censored for the sake of the confused masses, like the possibility the virus escaped from a bio-lab or that masks really help, are now respectable. FB, Google, Twitter, etc, will, by default, protect the status quo, the safe, consensual views, and censor anything else. This is very dangerous.

This isn't a first amendment problem. This is what an antitrust problem looks like in the information age.

Privately-run communication channels have always been arbiters of truth. Fanzines and newsletters chose what to publish. The town supermarket chose what flyers it would allow on its bulletin board. The local book store chose what books and magazines it would sell. Social clubs imposed standards on their membership. And this has always been (at least arguably) both their right and their duty.

The problem is not that Facebook does this. Unless and until they seek some form of common carrier status, they continue to retain the same curatorial rights as pretty much any other private organization that isn't a telecom. The problem is that the town bookstore is gone, the town grocery store no longer has a bulletin board, the Masonic temple and the Elks club have been converted to condos, and we have generally allowed the available media for disseminating information to consolidate into a worldwide oligarchy, with Facebook as its most powerful member. The problem is that my mom gets almost all her information about the outside world, including what's happening in her local community, from Facebook, and I honestly don't know where else she can go.

And that's a problem even if Facebook doesn't try to actively arbitrate truth, because you'd still have all the other problems: The tying of access to information to an abusive monetization policy. The tying of most opportunities for community engagement to an abusive monetization policy. The single, easy target for astroturfing and political manipulation. The way that lies and misinformation generally have to be left to spread like wildfire because you can't do anything about it without people complaining about free speech.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#492

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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-news-12-year-old-gi... Tell this to her parents. The distribution of case fatalities from SARS-CoV-2 is still very much up for debate. But it sure as hell isn't as simple as 'they were about to die anyway'. Also something that mainstream news coverage mostly ignores is that 1: about 20% of all patients regardless of age require supplementary oxygen to survive the infection and…

>The distribution of case fatalities from SARS-CoV-2 is still very much up for debate. Really? It seems to follow the same pattern everywhere. >1: about 20% of all patients regardless of age require supplementary oxygen to survive the infection and it'll be straight up the worst experience of their life. You mean all patients in bad enough state to end up in the hospital? 20% of all patients who have contracted SARS-…

> surely it must be okay to at least have the discussion

Yeah let's do it. COVID-19 might kill millions of people. Discussion over.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#493
post #433

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There's been some testing. It generally shows that _way_ more people have (or had) COVID-19 than we thought, and that most of the cases are so mild that people never even knew they were sick. NYC Hospitals find that 15% of pregnant women have COVID-19: https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/04/20/new... That particular article doesn't mention it, but other reports I've heard of said only about 1 in 8 of t…

All that the antibody studies have shown is that antibody studies grossly overestimate the number of people that have COVID-19. If the studies are accurate, only 1/600 affected people die... Which means that every single man, woman, and child in NYC has already been infected, and that the death rate will drop to zero tomorrow. I find that rather difficult to believe.

Yeah it's probably better to look at health care workers in this case: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/15/8349200...

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#494
post #420

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> People should be able to take a calculated risk. That is not at all what we're talking about here. People should not be able to take a calculated risk with the lives of others . Let me tell you why it's not like driving: the NHTSA reports 102 car fatalities a day in 2016. NYC just got under 500 COVID deaths a day. One city. 5x the fatalities. Compared to a country of 300 million people. This is, by far , the most o…

Those numbers are really damning for public transportation. If just one of the many diseases being spread around on the NYC subway system kills 5x as many as an entire nation of cars, it clearly isn't acceptable to operate public transportation.

It would have been fine if shelter in place had been ordered sooner. Further the first outbreak was in Westchester which is far outside the NYC subway system (there are still trains but ridership numbers are far lower).

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#495

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> ... with their own lives. You're talking about allowing people to risk other people's lives, and no, that's not ok. So, let's ban driving then?

In my country we don't just let people drive however they like on public roads. You have to be above a certain age, have passed a test, not be drunk or stoned, be driving a roadworthy vehicle, and follow many other rules. Your risk to other people's lives is carefully managed.

And still, drunk driving kills more than 10k every year in the US only: https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/drunk-driving

I should definitely quarantine me and my family after before 6 AM and after 6 PM.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#496

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To be clear, they have closed high schools and universities, and kept open junior schools under the theory that many children would need childcare anyway (over 80% of families have two working parents). Enough parents are keeping their kids home anyway that they are sending out warnings. 50% of the workforce is now working from home, under government orders for employers to support it where possible. People who have…

Sweden started out well but recent numbers indicate some concern. 1,580 deaths [1] as of Apr 20. Here are some comparisons and projections. I'm just using other people's estimates (I'm no expert but IHME ([3]) is). Sweden's expected total deaths of 5,890 by IHME, looks to be about 4,000 more deaths (preventable?) than comparable countries per capita (comparing Sweden to Switzerland which has 1429 current deaths). All…

[3] says 1000+ ICU beds needed and capacity 79 (!?) when actual numbers are 1000+ beds, of which about half are in use. So I would heavily discount its conclusion that deaths in Sweden will somehow surpass Germany (!?). In any case be mindful of the confidence intervals, they are huge and the projections seem much more volatile in general than local ones.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#497
post #190

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I have been a staunch progressive for my entire adulthood and now find myself strongly agreeing with the other side of the aisle. Strange times.

I'm mostly against the people who carry high powered weapons around and hope they don't accidentally kill me. It would be nice if they don't kill me by spreading easily avoidable diseases.

I found myself wondering what exactly those weapons are supposed to be for in that case.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#498
post #347

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> NYC just got under 500 COVID deaths a day. Important to remember what led up to that. High risk people were going about their daily activities, no one was social distancing. It’s disingenuous to imply that anyone who is anti-lockdown is talking about a complete return to pre-pandemic behavior that caused the numbers we are seeing in NYC.

NYC is also a giant, dense city where public transport is incredibly popular. When you see photos of the people protesting lockdowns, it's clear that they're not city metro living yuppies. They're suburbanites and rural. Any argument that cites NYC results for restrictions on non-NYC behaviour is ignorant at best and most likely disingenuous imo.

Yeah I'm not denying there are people who are genuinely protesting the shelter orders. But what's actually happening is a concerted, right wing political campaign [1].

> Any argument that cites NYC results for restrictions on non-NYC behaviour is ignorant at best and most likely disingenuous imo.

There are outbreaks in several other cities and the recommendation is the same: either get a robust testing system in place, or shelter. Those are your options right now.

[1]: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/04/whos-behind-the-reopen-d...

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This crisis shows you who some people really are. It seems a lot of people can't care less about the life of someone they don't know. That's a good thing. I now know what to think of those people. Who to avoid. But even better: it warms my heart to know the vast majority of people think it's okay to take an economic hit to save lives, to prevent the collapse of our healthcare systems, to buy time on our way to a vacc…

That can be easily flipped around though. From the perspective of people who see the virus as not in fact that dangerous in the grand scheme of things, it looks like a lot of people couldn't care less about the lives of others: the people who are trapped on their own for months at home under house arrest, the people who spent their lives building a business who tomorrow will have to tell their teammates it's all over…

This is just strawman after strawman. No one's saying we shouldn't do essential work like maintaining water treatment plants. No one's saying the economy is just spring breakers. In fact, they're demanding financial support from Congress to help people while the economy is shut down.

Please do more research and be more responsible. The stakes are very high.

Re: Facebook says it has removed promotion of anti-quarantine events

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If instead of saying "I want a haircut.", they would say like Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." would they be taken more seriously? Most people sound more like the latter than the former. If people were saying "We have a need for haircuts etc, this is serious", they'd get a lot more consideration than some appea…

> Most people sensibly realize that a lock-down in the face of a pandemic is not a regression in our fundamental rights as US citizens, but just a temporary measure to save lives. This way many of the rights in the Constitution and Amendments were slowly eroded (reduced), permanently. Technically, it is a slippery slope even if it is driven by good intentions. One day there will be nothing left, because this is how l…

> think of the children,

How is this any different than "think of our freedoms!" which has been used endlessly to oppress other nations and peoples, and, ironically, our own.

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