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Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

reuters.com

241–250 of 544 posts

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country except Iceland or South Korea knows how many are infected, everyone else's numbers are horribly wrong. But death numbers and hospitalization numbers don't lie. Sure, different countries are counting deaths differently, making it hard to compare them to each other, but the trajectories don't lie. And if you look at growth trajectories, no country is experiencing uncontrolled exponential growth at this point…

> But death numbers and hospitalization numbers don't lie. Well... there is some indication hospital staff are being directed to assume all cases are COVID19 until proven different. Patients that die with presumptive COVID19 are reported as COVID19 deaths. So agree, numbers don’t lie. But... handling emergencies effectively can lead to problematic numbers.

I'd like some evidence for this -- can you provide some?

When it comes to wearing surgical masks, yes, hospital staff are to assume that everyone's got it because it's pretty annoying to get it from a guy who came in for toenail fungus or a lady who came in for a prenatal screen and then be out of work for 2+ weeks. This is literally what has happened across Italy, China, New York, and other places. It's not like you write down in some electronic medical record "Man comes in with complaint of unattractive toenails. Presumed to be infected with COVID-19 without evidence." That's too damn much work.

On the other hand, when people die, some are being listed as presumed to have COVID-19 even in the absence of a positive test. Here's what the doctor sitting across from me says about how he's directed to fill out death certificates (yes, we're drinking Scotch, but this ought to still be accurate): On death certificates you are supposed to write a primary cause of death and then the interval between death and preceding underlying causes. For instance, if someone dies of ARDS preceded by dry cough, fever, difficulty breathing, you can say that they died of ARDS with presumed COVID-19 infection as an underlying cause. (You're apparently not really supposed to write "cardiac arrest" as a primary cause of death, because by definition, when you die your heart stops... so it's tautological in some sense and thus useless.) Another example: you could write "pneumonia" as primary cause of death, preceded by lung cancer preceded by asthma, and you could check a box for smoking but you couldn't write smoking down as a cause of death.

If you were hit by a bus and died of injuries, but you'd had COVID-19 symptoms beforehand, the certifying physician would need to write down "injuries from being hit by a bus", or rather in medicalese, "motor vehicle accident, pedestrian (ICD-10-CM subfamily V04)" [1]. COVID-19 in that case is not a cause of death, and that rando legislator from Minnesota who claims it is has a reading comprehension problem. My mom who works in the death certificate department will definitely be checking anything he signed.....

Why not only write down confirmed COVID-19 cases? Because, for instance, at the hospital at which the physician across from me works (in the COVID clinic, in fact), they serve about 100,000 patients but are allotted 25 rapid COVID tests a day. Since each patient needs two tests because of the high false-negative rate, that's 12 rapid-tested patients a day. Wowza. Yeah, let's use that on the guy who walked into the ER and got intubated within 20 minutes. Why bother?

Anyhow, interested to hear about your experiences.

[1] https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/V00-Y99/V00-V09/V04-

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#242
post #35

All the data points to the fact that coronavirus is more widespread and less deadly than most outlets are reporting (after all, increase the denominator, the % goes down). The countries with the lowest death rates are also the countries that did the most comprehensive testing. Ditto for this aircraft carrier. Of course governments and outlets are fearmongering lest they be accused of not doing enough, but this thing…

We locked most of the nation down for almost a month and still overloaded medical infrastructure and had to build field hospitals. We're burying people in parks and storing bodies in mobile freezers. Most elective surgeries are still on hold because the hospitals are filled with Covid patients. A few nations had to ration health care and didn't treat people over 60. What other disease has done this since the Spanish flu?

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain the hospitalization rate not climbing until a couple months later?

There are 2 strains?

So... you argue that 20% of the population had this disease, except that they didn't have this disease they had a close relative that is almost entirely asymptomatic in exactly the way you need it to be in order to explain away the case fatality rate measured for the disease we do know about?

I genuinely don't understand the desire on the part of so many people to... just not believe the relatively obvious (but still not remotely certain) fact that this is a very serious disease with an unmitigated doubling rate somewhere around 5 days and with somewhere in the realm of a 1% CFR. Really, the data matches that very well.

Certainly there is room for lots of uncertainty, but if your policy desires demand the invention of a second strain and whatnot... maybe it's time to revisit your priors?

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#244
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No country except Iceland or South Korea knows how many are infected, everyone else's numbers are horribly wrong. Is South Korea still consideered an outlier WRT testing regimes? Not to throw shade on their great efforts in leading the way, but many other countries now have extensive testing.

Australia has highest per-capita testing in the world. New Zealand is doing well. A number of other developed nations have been testing people since the start, but Australia and NZ have some added benefits of distance and relatively small populations that are helping them counter the pandemic better than most.

I don't see those facts in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_testing#Virus_testing...

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-testing#testing

I'd be wary of handing out superlatives just yet in any case.

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#245
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you of the opinion that this is simply just a slightly worse flu? > All the data points to the fact that coronavirus is more widespread and less deadly than most outlets are reporting You couldn't be more wrong. There are nurses and doctors working on the front lines dealing with patients, and they're completely and utterly overloaded. Lack of resources. Lack of help from local and federal governments. They're th…

> Are you of the opinion that this is simply just a slightly worse flu? I mean I'm about 95% sure I already had it. Had literally every single symptom but the local health authority (Alberta, Canada) wouldn't test me. My SO had it worse but again, they wouldn't test her. Felt like a worse flu + more coughing and shortness of breath. Worse fever. My symptoms were bad for about 3 days, then felt like a cold for about a…

> In Canada hospitalisation rates are way less than predicted.

Let me guess - these are the predictions that were made before the social isolation actions were taken? Its the Y2K hoax all over again?

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#246
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we KNOW it's controlled? Asymptomatic people are not, as a rule, tested, so actual infection rates could be massive.

No country except Iceland or South Korea knows how many are infected, everyone else's numbers are horribly wrong. But death numbers and hospitalization numbers don't lie. Sure, different countries are counting deaths differently, making it hard to compare them to each other, but the trajectories don't lie. And if you look at growth trajectories, no country is experiencing uncontrolled exponential growth at this point…

Sweden knows after sampling fecal matter

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My current bet is younger healthy people are more likely to be asymptomatic. And older people much less so. Theodore Roosevelt with likely a young population, most are asymptomatic. Diamond Princess much older population most are symptomatic.

This is a thing I've been thinking about a lot. We're quick to say "We're not testing enough", but also quick to throw statistics around "disproving" the amount of asymptomatic cases. I am on the side of "It's probably orders of magnitude widespread than most countries think", and the number of totally asymptomatic cases is actually far far higher. You can't test only the old and the already sick and then accurately…

People always seem to forget half of the Diamond Princess population was young, healthy, and under 35. Let’s not forget the crew were on board and infected, too.

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or Sweden Please note that the reporting on Sweden from outside Sweden is completely bananas. The idea of how Sweden is handling the pandemic, alongside cherry-picked data, is being used to argue for whatever lockdown theory people seem to have. The facts though are that Sweden is not an outlier in any way shape or form. Compared to other European countries, Sweden is boringly in the middle of the pack, and showing…

Not compared to Norway. How did Norway have more cases a month ago and now Sweden has double and 10x as many deaths.

Belgium and Sweden have had a similar timeline yet Belgium has a much higher number of deaths/capita. Same could be said for a lot of countries that have had much more fatalities. Look at the higher fatality rates in Quebec too, even though the province set in place really strict lockdowns and has had it's first deaths much later than Sweden. My point here is that Sweden is well in the middle of the pack.

So what gives? Shouldn't Sweden be a complete outlier with a much higher number of fatal cases? It compares negatively to Norway, sure but it has much better results than a lot more similar countries too. How is that possible? We are absolutely starting to move the goalposts if we went from predicting spanish flu mortality rates without a lockdown to a slightly higher death count per capita compared to a few neighbors but a much better one compared to a lot more.

Also, I don't know why people assume Sweden simply has had the virus later than everyone else and that's why they haven't been hit as hard yet. There's no basis for that, it's not like travel routes are slow and it still takes weeks to spread a disease. There's no reason to assume that when Belgium or Germany got the virus, Sweden was just magically spared for a few more weeks. We should've been seeing an impossible to miss outlier numbers from Sweden by now and the complete opposite is happening .

Re: Coronavirus clue? Most cases aboard U.S. aircraft carrier are symptom-free

#250
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a very obvious thing to detect (and we have not seen evidence of that).

evidence of what? two separate strains? this paper mentions two strains[0], 'L' and 'S' type, was it refuted? [0]: https://academic.oup.com/nsr/article/doi/10.1093/nsr/nwaa036...

yes: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/mutations-can-reveal...
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