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Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

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Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#131

Post by notechback »

sakisv wrote: post #119
quonn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alone? Like with the 500 billion euro EU emergency fund that was agreed yesterday?

These 500bn are loans from the ESM. The part of that will go to support public healthcare will be without conditions, but the rest that will go to support the other parts of the economies will be given on conditions of austerity. This agreement comes on the heels of the rejection of what 9 Eurozone countries including France had asked initially: A Eurobond, or coronabond as it made some headlines. That would have all…

Actually coronabonds would not allow the EU to borrow. It would allow individual countries to borrow with the guarantee given by all countries jointly. Those against it were mainly Netherlands, Austria and Finland, but Germany was not exactly a fan either.

See it this way: everyone knows Italian debt at 140% of GDP is unsustainable. Successive governments have promised again and again to do something about it, but then each finds a reason not to follow this promise. The Italian state is leaking money in all corners with many politically friendly businesses making huge gains at the cost of taxpayers. The default is mostly inevitable if there is not finally a serious attempt to address this issue.

Successive Italian governments have asked for mutualised debt - while increasing the national deficit and debt further each year. It would be crazy for any other government to give Italy a blank check and say "okay take whatever loans you need, wecll guarantee it". It means you are consciously taking up the risk of default for yourself while having no way to stop overspending or fix the underlying systemic issues. This means Italian governments have even less incentive to change the horribly corrupt and broken system.

That other countries say no is not a decision against the Italian citizens. It would be irresponsible towards their own citizens to take this up without some kind of real guarantee that Italy will finally fix the systemic issues, because the past 20 years of promises have been broken.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#132

Post by m0zg »

akiselev wrote: post #102
m0zg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given that hospitals are running out of PPE They aren't. You're being fed fake news. Hospital admissions and ICU admissions in NY are _way_ down. Nobody is running out of PPE. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. My source is governor Cuomo: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/were-ok-andrew-cuomo... . Don't bother pasting that teary eyed n…

> Hospital admissions and ICU admissions in NY are _way_ down. They aren't. You're being fed fake news. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. > Nobody is running out of PPE. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. From a New York City Department of Health advisory to NYC doctors,…

Facepalm. Your PDF is from March 20th. Watch recent Cuomo's pressers from the past few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prq-RZfDO8Y. Skip to 13:23 or so to see the chart, followed by ICU admissions chart.

Didn't read the rest of your message, sorry. You're being gaslit.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#133

Post by m0zg »

Erikun wrote: post #106
Lewton wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.icelandreview.com/sci-tech/is-icelands-coronavir... It should be obvious, when you have a virus with an infection rate doubling X number of days and it takes X or more days to start showing symptoms, if you do a random sample, 50% will be asymptomatic. That does NOT mean that they will continue to be asymptomatic

70% would certainly seem to be too high. Data from the Diamond Princess showed 17.9% of infected persons never developed symptoms. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6912e3.htm

And _all_ the people who died there were in their 70s and beyond and had comorbidities. Just one of those things fearmongers never mention.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#134

Post by akiselev »

m0zg wrote: post #132
akiselev wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hospital admissions and ICU admissions in NY are _way_ down. They aren't. You're being fed fake news. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. > Nobody is running out of PPE. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. From a New York City Department of Health advisory to NYC doctors,…

Facepalm. Your PDF is from March 20th. Watch recent Cuomo's pressers from the past few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prq-RZfDO8Y . Skip to 13:23 or so to see the chart, followed by ICU admissions chart. Didn't read the rest of your message, sorry. You're being gaslit.

You mean the charts labelled change in total hospital/ICU admissions? Based on your folkloric grasp of the English language, you have clearly misinterpreted those graphs.

Hint: key words are "change" and "total".

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#135

Post by andrepd »

quonn wrote: post #107
bsaul wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have more infos on that ?? I live in france and the general message we keep hearing is that every nation is dealing with the crisis alone and that the european union project may die because of that.

Alone? Like with the 500 billion euro EU emergency fund that was agreed yesterday?

Hah. There's much to be said about that fund. Only medical expenses are funded unconditionally, which is a fraction of the cost of this pandemic. As it stands, the countries of the South can look forward to a new wave of IMF/ECB imposed austerity, regardless of the disastrous effects it had last time...

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#136

Post by DanBC »

m0zg wrote: post #132
akiselev wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hospital admissions and ICU admissions in NY are _way_ down. They aren't. You're being fed fake news. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. > Nobody is running out of PPE. If you're going to dispute this, please provide a credible source familiar with the situation on the ground. From a New York City Department of Health advisory to NYC doctors,…

Facepalm. Your PDF is from March 20th. Watch recent Cuomo's pressers from the past few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prq-RZfDO8Y . Skip to 13:23 or so to see the chart, followed by ICU admissions chart. Didn't read the rest of your message, sorry. You're being gaslit.

Why might admissions to hospital be dropping? Because the hospitals are full?

From your video, 14:00

"This is a little deceptive, because at one time hospitals had discrete ICU wards or ICU beds. Effectively now in a hospital all the beds are ICU beds".

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#137

Post by m0zg »

DanBC wrote: post #136
m0zg wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facepalm. Your PDF is from March 20th. Watch recent Cuomo's pressers from the past few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prq-RZfDO8Y . Skip to 13:23 or so to see the chart, followed by ICU admissions chart. Didn't read the rest of your message, sorry. You're being gaslit.

Why might admissions to hospital be dropping? Because the hospitals are full? From your video, 14:00 "This is a little deceptive, because at one time hospitals had discrete ICU wards or ICU beds. Effectively now in a hospital all the beds are ICU beds".

But ICU admissions are also dropping and going negative. That is, fewer people are admitted than discharged. And according to frontline medics, everyone who needs an ICU bed gets an ICU bed.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#138

Post by m0zg »

akiselev wrote: post #134
m0zg wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facepalm. Your PDF is from March 20th. Watch recent Cuomo's pressers from the past few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prq-RZfDO8Y . Skip to 13:23 or so to see the chart, followed by ICU admissions chart. Didn't read the rest of your message, sorry. You're being gaslit.

You mean the charts labelled change in total hospital/ICU admissions ? Based on your folkloric grasp of the English language, you have clearly misinterpreted those graphs. Hint: key words are "change" and "total".

"Change" here means "hospitalizations per day", which is exactly what I meant. Seems like it's your grasp of the English language that's "folkloric", not mine. NY no longer projects that they will need anywhere near the capacity they already have.

Cuomo, BTW, then proceeds to talk about how models were total horseshit. He doesn't quite characterize them as such, choosing instead to give credit to his own response, but nearly all of the models he quotes assumed the current levels of mitigation.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#139

Post by DanBC »

m0zg wrote: post #137
DanBC wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why might admissions to hospital be dropping? Because the hospitals are full? From your video, 14:00 "This is a little deceptive, because at one time hospitals had discrete ICU wards or ICU beds. Effectively now in a hospital all the beds are ICU beds".

But ICU admissions are also dropping and going negative. That is, fewer people are admitted than discharged. And according to frontline medics, everyone who needs an ICU bed gets an ICU bed.

That's not what your own source says! 13:25 "Still net positive".

When you misrepresent your own sources it's clear that you're not making a good faith effort to understand what's happening.

Re: Map of usage of intensive care beds in Germany

#140

Post by yayr »

notechback wrote: post #131
sakisv wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These 500bn are loans from the ESM. The part of that will go to support public healthcare will be without conditions, but the rest that will go to support the other parts of the economies will be given on conditions of austerity. This agreement comes on the heels of the rejection of what 9 Eurozone countries including France had asked initially: A Eurobond, or coronabond as it made some headlines. That would have all…

Actually coronabonds would not allow the EU to borrow. It would allow individual countries to borrow with the guarantee given by all countries jointly. Those against it were mainly Netherlands, Austria and Finland, but Germany was not exactly a fan either. See it this way: everyone knows Italian debt at 140% of GDP is unsustainable. Successive governments have promised again and again to do something about it, but th…

I consent this argument. Unfortunately there are parts of human nature that imo require checks and balances also with help in these circumstances. Any help money that goes to an actually unneedy person or business or is spent in unresponsible ways takes unnecessarily from others, either now or in the future. It‘s a fine line that shifts depending on the trust the acting parties have in each other. However, these bad actors are everywhere, even in Germany are apparently cases like public servants sent home with full pay claiming help money or people making up fake lost businesses. So also there checks are increasing
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