Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money • Hacker News Board

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#231

Post by Tomminn » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #151

Tomminn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rocket- according to US employment policy- is a missile fired in a funny direction. So you need to be a citizen with a security clearance to work for any US aerospace company. This makes the cold shoulder a little more understandable, because they couldn't legally hire you even if they wanted to.

It is NOT true that you have to be a US citizen to work for a US aerospace company. Your comment can dissuade people from applying to jobs. It is true that there may be certain projects within a company that you cannot work on as a foreigner, and because of that it can be harder to get hired. But there are many foreigners who work at places like SpaceX, NASA, etc. For "sensitive country" foreign nationals (you can Go…

It's true that there are some loopholes [1]. It's also true that as a permanent resident, you come under the category "US person", which some/most of the ITER law refers to, which restricts non US-persons from working with "Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment" [2].

But I think it's fair summary to say that if you are neither a citizen or a permanent resident, you have a damn tough hill to climb [3].

[1] https://www.quora.com/How-can-non-U-S-citizens-work-for-NASA...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_...

[3] https://www.inverse.com/article/21487-elon-musk-spacex-forei...

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#232

Post by Tomminn » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #178

Tomminn wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rocket- according to US employment policy- is a missile fired in a funny direction. So you need to be a citizen with a security clearance to work for any US aerospace company. This makes the cold shoulder a little more understandable, because they couldn't legally hire you even if they wanted to.

> So you need to be a citizen with a security clearance to work for any US aerospace company. Absolutely not. No company requires a clearance for employment in general, only for specific programs. Also, US Permanent Residents can access unclassified export-controlled information.

Both good corrections. But the point about the difficulty as a non-US person remains.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#233

Post by ridv » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

pnw_hazor wrote: post #185

8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has this been documented anywhere, by the way? You'd think that there would be more reporting around this topic.

My brother in law is a CS professor at a US state university. Failing foreign students is highly discouraged even ones caught cheating. He has learned to not do it anymore.

Former TA here. I saw this happen several times with foreign students and domestic students. Maybe I could shed a little light on why this is this the case in most universities (mine was a public one in a large state for what it's worth).

Failing someone on the grounds of cheating at the university where I attended was a huge time investment. If the student contested their failing grade, the professor/lecturer who was the accuser had to go with evidence and present it before an internal panel. The student would obviously be allowed to defend themselves.

The outcome of the panel would rarely be in the favor of the accuser and against the student. The student would have to have been accused multiple times before the panel would take the complaint seriously. The punishment would end up being something like turning the failing grade into just one grade above failing.

When you consider how much a lecture gets paid, and how little importance teaching is given for researchers, you begin to understand why lecturers/professors just hand out Ds and move on with their lives.

The amount of times I caught people with MOSS[1] was too damn high. Never had anything come out of it so I stopped going the extra mile past sending the results to the person teaching the course.

[1] https://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#234

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 12:25 AM UTC

sullyj3 wrote: post #222

barry-cotter wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boarding schools have always been for a minority I sincerely doubt this. I’m not sure if my father’s school had day students when he attended but boarders were definitely a large majority. The omnipresence of boarding schools in post WWII British fiction doesn’t make any sense unless there was at least rough parity among independent schools. CS Lewis, George Orwell, Roald Dahl, off the top of my head. Seamus Heaney…

Another reasonable hypothesis is that only the elite had the opportunity to become authors

Lewis’ father was a solicitor, Dahl’s a shipbroker. Orwell and Heaney both attended boarding schools on a scholarship. Their fathers were respectively a civil servant and a farmer. Even by extremely expansive definitions of elite at most 50%.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#235

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 1:55 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #16

nitrogen wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really have to consider follow-on effects. It's like outsourcing all your manufacturing -- eventually you'll need something local and won't be able to get it, and everyone local who could otherwise have helped will resent you for selling out your industry.

Isn't this the reverse? China has outsourced higher education to the West. What follow on effects are you referring to? Besides, students are typically non-local in any university town.

You could also view it as the West offshoring its knowledge (if foreign students don't stay afterward, and/or the reduction in locals' abilities causes local economic stagnation).

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#236

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 2:31 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #203

barry-cotter wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boarding schools have always been for a minority I sincerely doubt this. I’m not sure if my father’s school had day students when he attended but boarders were definitely a large majority. The omnipresence of boarding schools in post WWII British fiction doesn’t make any sense unless there was at least rough parity among independent schools. CS Lewis, George Orwell, Roald Dahl, off the top of my head. Seamus Heaney…

I think it might have been more common to send children to boarding schools among the elite, but that does not mean that it was not a small minority overall. Obviously boarding schools are always going to be much more expensive than day schools.

Independent schools were always for a small minority. Among independent schools I’m reasonably confident boarding schools were a majority. They were not for an elite. They were for the economically successful, a middle class much smaller than what we have now but it was not unusual in small town or rural Ireland in the ‘60s for the children of shopkeepers or successful farmers to send children to board for secondary school. That’s a definition of elite so expansive as to be meaningless.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#237

Post by Melting_Harps » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 3:48 AM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #217

Melting_Harps wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a hard time seeing how this (college being a great time in your life) is disheartening. For many, it's a time that a combination of That you're mentally setting yourself up for be stunted for the rest of your Life is inevitable if you reach your apex by 22 and is incredibly sad; personally speaking, despite that phase of my Life I really didn't know how much more joy I would get out of Life until I turned 26…

> I got to travel, work and collaborate with People outside my discipline I got to do all those things during college (exception travel, but I'm not a big fan of travel). I've enjoyed my life since college, in some ways more. But college was a unique, wonderful experience that I remember fondly. Going back to school isn't in the cards for me, but it's certainly the source of the occasional idle thought. The rest of y…

> but I'm not a big fan of travel...

Your POV reflects that, which is very unfortunate, as does your adamant dismissal about my 'tangent' not being relevant to my conclusion of how the priorities of the system have been completely lost; I used it to try and convey a very observable example as it proves that the well can been poisoned by administrative decree, which is in turn aided by those very same who sought to create University into a walled garden experience.

If people are uncomfortable with having their convictions and ideals questioned and placed into scrutiny than something like 'higher education' should be the antithesis of what they are seek and they should be discouraged into such a system--instead they seem to be encouraged to do so all while accruing obscene amounts of un-payable student debt, backed by the State. Further creating an explotable under-class which ultimately amounts to indentured servitude.

But hey, don't let me interfere with the pursuits of all of those luminary Gender Studies majors being awarded PhDs for their exemplary work on the correct use of Gender pronouns of fluid-furries Influencers on Social Media.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#238

Post by physicsguy » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 7:19 AM UTC

amiga_500 wrote: post #103

red_admiral wrote: post #96

Good article, but I want to clarify a point since it could leave the impression that it's universities themselves driving this growth race. In the UK at least, we used to have a model where universities were funded by the government (through tax, of course) but the government also set hard limits on how many students you could enrol, with penalties for going over. The current model which Tony Blair in effect started…

How did we used to do this in the 1970s where the state paid for it all? We now live in a world where you don't need a secretary, because you can type up documents yourself, you can instantly send written communication via email. You can publish agendas, and other campus wide information instantly on a website. You can automate. You can distribute notes to your students for free instead of endless photocopies. Why gi…

We didn't. Hardly anyone went to University in the UK at that time, compared to now.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#239

Post by ThrowAway1Day » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 10:26 AM UTC

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

It's not just academia, but also primary education, where foreign student money is ruining education.

Take for example Türk Lisesi schools, run by the terrorist Fetullah Gülen (Fetø for short).

They have managed to steal 10s of billions of dollars from governments around the world through scammy charter programs, while raising two generations of teenagers whose goal it is to overthrow Turkey and implement shariah law.

1/2 of the schools the Turks go to in Melbourne, for example, are Turk Lisesi.

Interesting fact, Gülen, who has asylum in Pennsylvania, is also a friend of America's radicalized christian terrorist secretary of education. There are pictures of her standing side by side at $10k per plate fundraising dinners for Donny.

Greed AND religion are destroying education all around the world.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#240

Post by ThrowAway1Day » Wed, Apr 08, 2020, 11:28 AM UTC

jes5199 wrote: post #181

burntoutfire wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane. For people who don't neccessarily like working (i.e. for most people), school and college are usually the best times of lifes. It's just that it's hard to appreciate that when you have no point of…

I fucking hate schoolwork though, it always made me significantly more miserable than job-work ever did

I preferred school work. I could fuck up a few times and not be expelled. Fuck up once at a job, and you're fired, no severance, no anything. At my last job (hopefully my LAST job) I was fired for the crime of questioning the validity of using work in progress Pull Requests as a KPI. I was fired on a Thursday, and I did not get paid for Friday. (Name and shame: Cloudpassage.com. A failing company).

School was better. You don't become homeless if you get a D