Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money • Hacker News Board

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#141

Post by ludamad » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:36 PM UTC

aikinai wrote: post #136

save_ferris wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled in undergrad 12 years ago at a large public university. I think part of it has been driven by student demand for more parental oversight, but I also think the marketing is what got so many students to take out debt in the first place. So many of my undergrad c…

I think it is the best four years of life for many (maybe most?) Americans at least. But I think that speaks to exactly what people are saying in this thread. It's not about education anymore, it's evolved into a four-year time-of-your-life experience that through a fluke of history gets supported by guaranteed loans.

Yes unfortunately. It is that time when everyone I know had free time and money. The lucky of us got good jobs, the others debt

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#142

Post by commandlinefan » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

cyphar wrote: post #38

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

Australian here too, just graduated along with my partner (who was an international student). You're right about the long-term consequences for the university, but I would also add that universities actively undermine their international students at every turn (perhaps because there's little profit motive to help them succeed in their ludicrously expensive education). The thing that pisses me off the most is that the…

> who were lied to by their employer into thinking they can work more hours than they can

And if anybody is reading this thinking, "whew, I'm sure glad I'm not an international student", this affects everybody. (I mean, you should be outraged anyway but just in case). By normalizing abusive behavior, it creeps up on everyone the same, even if it takes a little bit longer to spread.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#143

Post by ludamad » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:41 PM UTC

seeTheAstroturf wrote: post #89

sago wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities should not be responsible for both education and assessment. All of this disappears in a moment if those two are separate. But universities would resist that kicking and screaming to high heaven. Because it would not only undermine their 'great institution' claims, but educational routes that aren't universities would trump them (in terms of cost for attainment) in very short order.

The only thing I can say I learned from Engineering school is math. 4 years of my career completely changed my mind about what Engineering is. I didn't know I would be solving problems. Good that they teach math, but there's a giant disconnect between academia and industry.

In some ways, there is 'good disconnect' if the disconnect is that the academia merely informs your thinking, not your immediate actions. It shows that you learned the fundamentals in an insular environment that doesn't muddle them. If there is full disconnect, that is rough though

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#144

Post by matheusmoreira » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

> There are all sort of perverse incentives built in to erode educational benefits, hand hold students, make university 'fun'

This blog may be relevant:

https://professorconfess.blogspot.com/

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#145

Post by duxup » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

washadjeffmad wrote: post #95

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

Something I've noticed is that universities in the US no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the "college experience". Brochures are rife with amenities and activities like you're picking out a resort or extended summer camp where you can safely figure out who you are, make friends, and be protected until you're set free, job-pass in hand. These advertisements are also primar…

>but as providing the "college experience".

Schools maybe didn't say it as blatantly, but I think that's been a/the selling point since ... you had schools you went away to.

I'm not convinced a huge % of students value outcomes until ... it is time to face them.

If they did I think I'd see a lot different choices by students. That's not recrimination as much as a recognition about how folks make these kinds of decisions / choices.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#146

Post by bigfudge » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #75

neumann wrote: post #13

I work at a University in Australia and have been on both sides of academic and professional. This unravelling was on the horizon for everybody, maybe not so soon, but definitely in the viewport. In an effort to drive up income streams there has been a slow erosion of Australian education (more at some universities than others) to cater for the international (Chinese and Indian predominantly) market. There are all so…

This reminds me of a New Statesmen article about UK universities[1], which point out university attendance has gone up 500% since 1990 and First class honours went from being awarded to 7% to being awarded to 29% of students. Either universities figured out a way of being 4x as effective teaching 5x as many students (with measurements for average intake attainment basically flat) - which would be a miracle. Or the ma…

One of the metrics in league tables is % 1st class degrees (and it's not reverse weighted, as one might hope).

Gaming league tables drives almost all management decisions in UK universities, because it so directly affects the bottom line.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#147

Post by barry-cotter » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:48 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #65

nvarsj wrote: post #47

This is a problem in the UK too. The independent school (aka private school) sector has seen fees double or triple over the last 10-20 years. This is largely driven by rich foreign students, primarily Chinese, sending their kids to these schools. I don't particularly regret these bastions of class division destroying their reputation for money, but there are a lot of knock on effects. Independent schools used to be o…

It's only boarding schools. Many, if not most, independent schools do not offer boarding and thus don't have foreign pupils at all. Boarding schools have always been for a minority and this hasn't changed because of foreign pupils. Now, boarding schools are often keen on foreign pupils (esp. Chinese nowadays) because it IS actually good for their reputation: The Chinese education system is such that these pupils tend…

> Boarding schools have always been for a minority

I sincerely doubt this. I’m not sure if my father’s school had day students when he attended but boarders were definitely a large majority. The omnipresence of boarding schools in post WWII British fiction doesn’t make any sense unless there was at least rough parity among independent schools. CS Lewis, George Orwell, Roald Dahl, off the top of my head. Seamus Heaney after looking it up.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#148

Post by burntoutfire » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:49 PM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #107

washadjeffmad wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I've noticed is that universities in the US no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the "college experience". Brochures are rife with amenities and activities like you're picking out a resort or extended summer camp where you can safely figure out who you are, make friends, and be protected until you're set free, job-pass in hand. These advertisements are also primar…

> no longer seem to advertise their primary mission as education, but as providing the “college experience.” This was already really noticeable when I enrolled in undergrad 12 years ago at a large public university. I think part of it has been driven by student demand for more parental oversight, but I also think the marketing is what got so many students to take out debt in the first place. So many of my undergrad c…

> So many of my undergrad classmates (perhaps even a slim majority) believed that undergrad was going to be the best 4 years of their lives and they had to make the most of them, which I personally found completely insane.

For people who don't neccessarily like working (i.e. for most people), school and college are usually the best times of lifes. It's just that it's hard to appreciate that when you have no point of reference. My parents and aunt had this wisdom and, while I was a child, told me "enjoy yourself now, because it will be all downhill from here".

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#149

Post by Loughla » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:52 PM UTC

alexpotato wrote: post #139

Something similar happened back in the late 1960's. Eisenhower had pumped tons of funding into universities to help us catch up to the Soviets after Sputnik. This was primarily for what is now called STEM but benefited each university as whole. Fast forward to the late-1960's and the costs of the Vietnam War plus social programs under Johnson led to huge cuts in funding to universities. To make up the shortfall, admi…

State and federal funding can be tied to increases in enrollment, 100%.

My current institution was founded on the principal that 33% of funding came from the feds, the state, and tuition. Now, it is 5% federal (excluding PELL grants), 11% state, and the remaining amount is tuition and PELL grants. Our incentive is to get as many students as we can, otherwise we close the doors.

If you want higher education to stop its sleazy processes, we need to fund it appropriately via tax dollars. It's a lot like people who want abstinence education, in my opinion. You can want people to do the right thing all you want, but at the end of the day, people are going to bang, so you need to set them up with the birth control they need. You can want institutions of higher education to act altruistically all you want, while cutting funding, but at the end of the day, they're going to do what they have to in order to keep the doors open.

Re: Universities forced to face addiction to foreign students’ money

#150

Post by Loughla » Tue, Apr 07, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

non-entity wrote: post #94

aschatten wrote: post #30

Not just foreign. In the US even many university prefed out of state students, but will never admit to it.

My opinion on university education has flip flopped overtime with me leading toward it being a massive scam at the moment, but this time for reasons like what you mention. Case in point: I found the perfect program for me: online CS bachelors, from a respected state school, very affordable. However, I cant even be considered a resident of the state I live and work in for several years and would be forced to pay out o…

That's weird, most schools offer one flat online cost, regardless of residency. That schools is woefully out of touch. Who is it?