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Anatomy of long sales letter

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Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#41

Post by JeremyReeves »

ahi wrote: post #7
blhack wrote: post #6

This is what terrifies me so much about being a [mostly] sole-founder. If I saw something like this in my mail, I would immediately throw it away and probably have a few thoughts about how out of touch the person who commissioned it was. But if it really does "convert like crazy", it means that any wisdom I have about marketing (and most of the wisdom given out by fellow geeks, designers, and most marketers) is almos…

I think the long form marketing works on the lower half of the intelligence bell curve. This probably excludes much of a programmer's social circle.

Actually... it's the EXACT opposite of that.

Think about it.

Who is going to read a 10... 20... 30 page letter.

Someone one the lower half of the bell curve who can hardly string a sentence together, or someone who likes to read and is therefore (usually) more intelligent?

I personally use long copy to get clients who own MULTI-million dollar businesses.

Do you think they're on the lower half of the bell curve?

Nope :)

If I didn't use long copy to them... how could I show them how different I was? How could I display my USP? How could I talk about my guarantee? How could I get in touch with them emotionally so they pick up the phone and call?

Short answer - I wouldn't be able to.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#42

Post by JeremyReeves »

paraschopra wrote: post #8
ahi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the long form marketing works on the lower half of the intelligence bell curve. This probably excludes much of a programmer's social circle.

Yep, if your target customer base includes people who religiously consider such letters as scammy (and I agree most programmers would do so) then it is probably a bad idea to use long sales copy.

Perfectly said Paras.

It's all about knowing your market, giving them something they're familiar with, and then BEING INTERESTING :)

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#43

Post by JeremyReeves »

nhangen wrote: post #33
JeremyReeves wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's biased at all. I do agree that long form tends to do better for information products. However, it also does better in 90% of cases, as well. As I mentioned in the post... it does NOT do better in EVERY single case. You're "essentially" comment is absolutely wrong... and TOTALLY biased after you just said my post was biased. It depends on the market maturity, the branding of the company, and MANY ot…

That comment is from my own experience. I've sold a bit of both in my day, and while I don't hate long form copy, I hate pages that look like crap, such as some of those examples. Again, I'm not hating on you, or your piece, but the fact that often times long form copy is associated with horrid design. That's the trend I want to see disappear.

No offense taken. I'm actually personally re-doing the order form on the 1 example so it looks more "clean".

The design doesn't matter though.

"Pretty" doesn't sell.

Trust me on that one.

What sells is understanding your customer, having a product which gives them exactly what they need at a fair price, and showing that customer how different that product is from other similar products.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#44

Post by JeremyReeves »

kiubo wrote: post #11

The article seems to generalize quite a bit. The effectiveness of a letter like this I imagine would depend quite a bit on who the target is.

Thanks for the comment.

Yea it's hard not to generalize since it's only 1 article, ya know? I tried being as specific as possible without turning it into a 30 page article :)

And yes, you're absolutely right... and hit on something most people don't understand.

It all depends on the target market! ;)

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#45

Post by [deleted] »

JeremyReeves wrote: post #39
feverishaaron wrote: post #31

It's interesting how people divide themselves into two separate camps when it comes to landing page/direct marketing (which are brothers of the same mother). The fact is, both longform and shortform work. But why they work and which context depends on the type of product you are offering and your sales model. Long form works best for: * Simple to understand products which have difficult to achieve benefits (weight lo…

FANTASTIC comment! :) Believe it or not, I DON'T only do long-form salesletters so I don't divide myself into a "long-form-only" camp. Typically what I do is figure out what the client needs... assess the market/product,etc... and do 1 or the other to START. However, if I'm not absolutely positive that whatever form I'm using will work - I always recommend that the client test a longer copy page versus a shorter copy…

[deleted]

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#46

Post by feverishaaron »

JeremyReeves wrote: post #39
feverishaaron wrote: post #31

It's interesting how people divide themselves into two separate camps when it comes to landing page/direct marketing (which are brothers of the same mother). The fact is, both longform and shortform work. But why they work and which context depends on the type of product you are offering and your sales model. Long form works best for: * Simple to understand products which have difficult to achieve benefits (weight lo…

FANTASTIC comment! :) Believe it or not, I DON'T only do long-form salesletters so I don't divide myself into a "long-form-only" camp. Typically what I do is figure out what the client needs... assess the market/product,etc... and do 1 or the other to START. However, if I'm not absolutely positive that whatever form I'm using will work - I always recommend that the client test a longer copy page versus a shorter copy…

The right way to approach landing page design is to systematically test various variables. The landing page should evolve over time as you learn what works and what doesn't.

The problem is that this process is very time-intensive and subject to the discipline (or lack thereof) of the stakeholder. Plus, many people like generalizations and easy answers.

With all marketing your mileage will vary, depending on what you are selling. It is up to you to determine when extended testing yields limited returns. But the important thing is to test. There is no excuse for not testing.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#47

Post by ahi »

sethg wrote: post #35
ahi wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the long form marketing works on the lower half of the intelligence bell curve. This probably excludes much of a programmer's social circle.

That article reminded me of Giles Bowkett’s blog postings advertising his video- and ebook-based classes, e.g.: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2010/03/programmers-what-to... I have no idea if the courses are any good, but he does market them to programmers, and since he has put up more than one blog posting of this nature, I assume he must be getting sales.

I only think those work because they are dripping in irony. Would his target market respond to those postings if they were sincere long form marketing.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#48

Post by fakelvis »

ahi wrote: post #7
blhack wrote: post #6

This is what terrifies me so much about being a [mostly] sole-founder. If I saw something like this in my mail, I would immediately throw it away and probably have a few thoughts about how out of touch the person who commissioned it was. But if it really does "convert like crazy", it means that any wisdom I have about marketing (and most of the wisdom given out by fellow geeks, designers, and most marketers) is almos…

I think the long form marketing works on the lower half of the intelligence bell curve. This probably excludes much of a programmer's social circle.

I think that's looking at it in entirely the wrong way. It's naive to assume that long form marketing works like that and that those on the lower half are more receptive to the style.

I see two steps to understanding why long forms works and why people like us have an aversion to the method:

* Seeing the same things in different ways

* Assumptions about our place on the Internet

Seeing the same things in different ways

Take as an example the face mask adverts halfway down this A List Apart article on Whitespace in design: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/whitespace

Looking at the direct mail version of the face mask advert we primarily see a bad design with no budget invested in it. We may assume that the face mask is likely to be of poor quality.

Others (e.g. those not versed in design theory/used to seeing nice designs… i.e. those who are not able to readily grasp why something just looks badly designed) may well see a small, honest, single-person company that didn't waste money on graphic design. He invested in the product, not the design.

The two designs are designed with intent; positioned differently for a different clientele. One no-less intelligent than the other, just less educated in marketing tactics and design.

We see the same thing in vastly different ways, drawing different conclusions about different aspects of the same offer.

Assumptions about our place on the Internet

It doesn't surprise me that long form works so well on the Internet.

Because we surround ourselves with people in our own social circle -- be it on Twitter, here on HN, etc. -- we forget that we are only a tiny subset of the Internet population: the subset of people who enjoy testing, reading about and discussing marketing, design, entrepreneurship, sales, psychology, etc.

Most purchasing and browsing on the Internet is done by those not as well-versed in these areas as us: we're out numbered by the people who know less about these topics by a huge factor.

They come across a long form marketing piece and good copy will snag them and bring them in, selling it to them slowly but surely.

When we see it: bad design!, scam!, psychological tricks!, close! The copy doesn't get to us. It doesn't sell us. It isn't positioned toward us.

Combine this difference of opinion and our temporary delusion that everyone should be like us and you have your reason why we find it hard to comprehend why long form works so damn well.

- OK, my apologies for the length of this reply. Rant over. Hope it makes sense.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#49

Post by Klinky »

JeremyReeves wrote: post #40
Klinky wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[report spam] click This does remind me of the story about a week ago where a "females only" founders Q&A conference run my Ycombinator which turned out to have no female founders at it at all. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2229494 Usually when something makes broad claims, for me, it needs to back it up ASAP. Most long form letters over exaggerate, repeat a lot of vague information & then throw in a bunch of u…

You seem to read a lot of BAD salesletters written by lousy copywriters. And THAT is where the difference is. In my letters, my claims are backed up with proof. The testimonials are of people you can call on the phone. And I personally use the product before I even START writing. Bad copy written by an unethical copywriter sucks. Good copy written by a great copywriter will keep your eyes glued on the page as long as…

Well, it's very easy to manipulate people in need. A lot of these scam sites go after people with medical conditions.

Example: "Forbidden Neck Pain Relief", should stay forbidden because it's a lame scam. http://www.sitejabber.com/reviews/www.losethebackpain.com

They've also clogged up google for the keywords "Jesse Cannone scam" with fake reviews/testimonials. They're selling snake oil.

It's typical scam behavior, make outlandish claims, sell cheaply made product at high price, give kick back to affiliate. It doesn't matter if your product sucks, just market the shit out of it & make returning it hard to do or not worth the hassle. It might be worthwhile to sneak in a recurring charge while you're at it.

I am pretty sure the overpriced inversion table is similar. Also just because a saw cuts through a car on TV doesn't mean it does it in real life. Using an infomercial as an example of good marketing just shows the quality level that's being aimed at here.

There are too many worthless business ventures out there & too many stupid people falling for them. Some of these people though have serious medical problems & are desperate for a cure. Preying on these peoples condition isn't a trait I'd tout.

You may be good at writing convertible copy, but just because you've conned yourself into thinking what you write is true, doesn't actually make it so.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#50

Post by Klinky »

aristidb wrote: post #32
Klinky wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the much more deceptive "Money Back Guarantee*" is what is usually plugged in instead of "Try Now".

And it works because people are very reluctant to give up things they own, even if they don't find them useful.

Well in many cases the actual cost of the product was covered in the "Shipping & Processing Fee". To return the product the customer would have to pay the shipping back as well. Sometimes they say they'll pay shipping back, but they've probably accounted for this by making a higher initial shipping cost or making a it a pain in the butt to return or just by conveniently "going out of business" after a month or two.
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