Anatomy of long sales letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#21

Post by jeremydavid » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 4:38 PM UTC

Hates_ wrote: post #13

My concern with the long sales letter approach is how relevant it is to web apps. Mail order books, courses I can see the benefit, but with a web app, why write lots of spiel about a product someone can start using straight away with a trial account. I am at constant battle with my business partner over this as personally I don't believe it is the right way to create a conversion with web apps (How many successful we…

Even with a free trial, the purpose of a long sales form is to explain why APPNAME.LY is superior to all the other competing products and get you to try it out.

Look at Basecamp (http://basecamphq.com/). They have a tremendously successful webapp, and their landing page is long enough to clearly explain the benefits and uses many of the features commonly found in direct mail/mail order advertising.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#22

Post by blhack » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

jeremydavid wrote: post #19

blhack wrote: post #6

This is what terrifies me so much about being a [mostly] sole-founder. If I saw something like this in my mail, I would immediately throw it away and probably have a few thoughts about how out of touch the person who commissioned it was. But if it really does "convert like crazy", it means that any wisdom I have about marketing (and most of the wisdom given out by fellow geeks, designers, and most marketers) is almos…

If you were in the market for a, lets say, refrigerator, and you were sent a detailed letter explaining why Brand X Refrigerators keep food fresh longer and save you money on electricity - would you really throw it away?

If it looked like this, yes; I would assume it was lying to me, and I would throw it away.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#23

Post by bmr » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 4:46 PM UTC

We laugh at people "on the lower half of the bell curve" who use the "length equals strength" heuristic to evaluate long-form letters, but the same thing happens in these comments all the time.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#24

Post by JeremyReeves » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 4:54 PM UTC

nhangen wrote: post #3

Written by a direct response copywriter, so it's going to be a bit biased. I've tested short and long form, and while long form tends to do better for information products, if you are actually providing something of value, then usually a short form can work just as well. Essentially - to sell shit, you need to spend a long time persuading someone to buy it. To sell gold, you just need a buy now button.

I don't think it's biased at all.

I do agree that long form tends to do better for information products.

However, it also does better in 90% of cases, as well. As I mentioned in the post... it does NOT do better in EVERY single case.

You're "essentially" comment is absolutely wrong... and TOTALLY biased after you just said my post was biased.

It depends on the market maturity, the branding of the company, and MANY other factors.

All in all - all I'm saying is this.

Long copy works in 80-90% of cases... TYPICALLY. It depends on a lot of factors, and the only way to really know... is to test it with a GOOD copywriter.

After all... long copy that sucks will always do worse than short copy which is brilliant :)

Jeremy

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#25

Post by GBond » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 4:57 PM UTC

Related to this is the "Underachiever Method" and the previously discussed thread on the "400k/yr Parrot eBook guy" http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=516215

The long form is particular popular with this market targeting method because "ugliness" doesn't matter especially if you position the product as a ultra-niche subject matter authority.

I'm surprised to see that the article doesn't mention that the long form also benefits from SEO juice (more word, better chance of google rewarding keyword context relevance).

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#26

Post by Matti » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 5:10 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #6

This is what terrifies me so much about being a [mostly] sole-founder. If I saw something like this in my mail, I would immediately throw it away and probably have a few thoughts about how out of touch the person who commissioned it was. But if it really does "convert like crazy", it means that any wisdom I have about marketing (and most of the wisdom given out by fellow geeks, designers, and most marketers) is almos…

But if you were to receive a personalized, sixteen page sales letter signed by Paul Graham, you'd probably read it multiple times.

"The astonishing startup secrets of Ycombinator's founder

Ryan,

below I'll reveal an amazing startup plan specifically designed for sole founders.

It has a proven 73% success rate.

If you're interested in running a SaaS company and you're willing to relocate to the Bay Area, then this letter might be the most important you'll ever read.

WARNING: You are not allowed to share the information contained in this letter with anyone else. It's for your eyes only.

What you'll read below will at first seem contradictory. It'll fly in the face of everything you currently know about starting and running a business. It'll blow away your current beliefs about product development and customer acquisition. So make sure you sit down, because what I'm about to tell you will possibly change your life forever..."

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#27

Post by Klinky » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

Matti wrote: post #26

blhack wrote: post #6

This is what terrifies me so much about being a [mostly] sole-founder. If I saw something like this in my mail, I would immediately throw it away and probably have a few thoughts about how out of touch the person who commissioned it was. But if it really does "convert like crazy", it means that any wisdom I have about marketing (and most of the wisdom given out by fellow geeks, designers, and most marketers) is almos…

But if you were to receive a personalized, sixteen page sales letter signed by Paul Graham, you'd probably read it multiple times. "The astonishing startup secrets of Ycombinator's founder Ryan, below I'll reveal an amazing startup plan specifically designed for sole founders. It has a proven 73% success rate. If you're interested in running a SaaS company and you're willing to relocate to the Bay Area, then this let…

[report spam] click

This does remind me of the story about a week ago where a "females only" founders Q&A conference run my Ycombinator which turned out to have no female founders at it at all. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2229494

Usually when something makes broad claims, for me, it needs to back it up ASAP. Most long form letters over exaggerate, repeat a lot of vague information & then throw in a bunch of unverifiable testimonials(e.g "Bob in Austin, TX writes"). A large portion of copywriters are people who don't use the product, never plan to use the product and are essentially lying about the product. Blah.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#28

Post by Klinky » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 5:33 PM UTC

netaustin wrote: post #17

Hates_ wrote: post #13

My concern with the long sales letter approach is how relevant it is to web apps. Mail order books, courses I can see the benefit, but with a web app, why write lots of spiel about a product someone can start using straight away with a trial account. I am at constant battle with my business partner over this as personally I don't believe it is the right way to create a conversion with web apps (How many successful we…

I suspect that a "try now" button would be the death of most products traditionally advertised by a long sales letter.

Yes, the much more deceptive "Money Back Guarantee*" is what is usually plugged in instead of "Try Now".

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#29

Post by Klinky » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 5:40 PM UTC

jeremydavid wrote: post #21

Hates_ wrote: post #13

My concern with the long sales letter approach is how relevant it is to web apps. Mail order books, courses I can see the benefit, but with a web app, why write lots of spiel about a product someone can start using straight away with a trial account. I am at constant battle with my business partner over this as personally I don't believe it is the right way to create a conversion with web apps (How many successful we…

Even with a free trial, the purpose of a long sales form is to explain why APPNAME.LY is superior to all the other competing products and get you to try it out. Look at Basecamp ( http://basecamphq.com/ ). They have a tremendously successful webapp, and their landing page is long enough to clearly explain the benefits and uses many of the features commonly found in direct mail/mail order advertising.

The thing is they have professional graphics, high profile clients, high quality video testimonials & upfront pricing. The website is actually pretty free of gimmickry. While it is long the actual text is only about 3 paragraphs. Also you're on their homepage, which is more trustworthy than your e-mail inbox.

There's a pretty big difference from Basecamp's website vs someone trying to get you to buy "Forbidden neck pain reliever that the pharmaceutical companies don't want you to know about!!" or a cheap saw made in china that will probably break after a month and cost too much to send back for the Money Back Guarantee*.

Re: Anatomy of long sales letter

#30

Post by arepb » Tue, Mar 01, 2011, 6:00 PM UTC

Matti wrote: post #26

blhack wrote: post #6

This is what terrifies me so much about being a [mostly] sole-founder. If I saw something like this in my mail, I would immediately throw it away and probably have a few thoughts about how out of touch the person who commissioned it was. But if it really does "convert like crazy", it means that any wisdom I have about marketing (and most of the wisdom given out by fellow geeks, designers, and most marketers) is almos…

But if you were to receive a personalized, sixteen page sales letter signed by Paul Graham, you'd probably read it multiple times. "The astonishing startup secrets of Ycombinator's founder Ryan, below I'll reveal an amazing startup plan specifically designed for sole founders. It has a proven 73% success rate. If you're interested in running a SaaS company and you're willing to relocate to the Bay Area, then this let…

This is exactly right. It all depends on identifying the right audience. Longer copy is great for people who are prospects for the product; for people who aren't it just looks like a messy sales page.