Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#91

Post by bigfudge » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 7:51 AM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #88

hyko wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two responses are not equal, as every claim made by anyone should fall into category 1 until proven otherwise. Response 2 admits the possibility of better theories about the world being possible, while refusing to do the actual science that would prove their existence. Claims about alternative medicine don't even get to start from this generous position because the field has produced reams upon reams of utter-a…

It's all mumbo jumbo is equivalent to 'it has been proven not to work'. That is a strong position to take, not a default one. The second is too hand-wavy to even really call a position. Note that it's generally important to separate the possible effectiveness of a technique from the beliefs about why it may be effective that practitioners hold. Willowbark is an effective remedy for some ailments, not because of some…

The thing is Reiki is just the latest in a long line of fads we have to consider seriously, despite having a (reasonable) prior that they won't work because the physics doesn't make sense. Proponents of woo can keep wasting our time by switching to a newly labelled energy fad. People spent a lot of time and serious money running trials of homeopathy etc. We will see the same pattern here.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#92

Post by jgrpf » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 7:51 AM UTC

battery_cowboy wrote: post #44

Who cares? Honestly, stop giving a crap about what other people do to make themselves happy, just don't try it if you don't think it will work. If no one is getting hurt, one person leaves happier and one person leaves richer, then it's a win-win-win (win-win, plus a win for society as a whole).

A lot of people are scammed though by Shamans and the like. And often times they do not leave that much happier but emotionally dependant and sometimes even broke. I've seen it plenty of times and think it's absolutely immoral.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#93

Post by waterhouse » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 7:51 AM UTC

gnramires wrote: post #21

ilaksh wrote: post #17

Maybe there is a way to use this concept of reducing stress with a gesture without invoking supernatural gibberish. I mean to me it seems totally plausible that having a person there that is trying to help you in and of itself can reduce stress. Also if they touch you, that seems like it could definitely reduce stress also. Or just the psychological effect of knowing that there are people who care, that seems like it…

> The question is can that basic concept work without the mumbojumbo I used to think like that too, but I'm more open that sometimes a story, any story, allegory can be helpful in many contexts, by creating an identity, an aesthetic quality of the thing; help us conceptualize it. Since this in particular is about psychological phenomenon, I think it perhaps shouldn't be discarded. The question would be (if the story…

Surely there's a way to believe something important and true with the right emotional valence. Consider the story I laid out in a nearby comment: "A competent, trusted person loves you and is laying hands on you in a kindly way to heal you. When this happened to our ancestors, they were in a safe position and their bodies needed healing; under these circumstances, there was no risk of further injury and no need to worry about other needs (because they will be attended to), which means the body should turn down its immune response and focus on healing. Evolution carried this lesson down into your body. I will be the competent, trusted person who loves you, and I will lay kindly hands on you, and your body will respond instinctively and heal."

It doesn't need to be any more (or less) magical than what happens in theatre. The actors do their best to live their roles, to do the things and feel the emotions their characters would feel, and they let the audience see it—perhaps playing it up a little, because the audience is tens of feet away. I believe there are at least some in the service industry that have a related "I'm playing a role, of one who is delighted to help my great customer, to the best of my ability" ethos.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#94

Post by jariel » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 7:58 AM UTC

connectsnk wrote: post #31

Many people are commenting that Reiki is like Meditation i.e. all mumbo jumbo placebo effect. This might persuade a lot of people to reject both without going through the experience. I have been a very infrequent practitioner of meditation since 2009. I am now a very different person and there is no way for me to measure how or what has changed in me. I am way more focused, happier and might I conservatively add the…

"all mumbo jumbo placebo effect"

Yeah but the placebo effect is not mumbo jumbo!

That's the kicker ...

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#95

Post by Tepix » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 8:08 AM UTC

The article states:

> Various non-Western practices have become popular complements to conventional medicine in the past few decades, chief among them yoga, meditation, and acupuncture, all of which have been the subject of rigorous scientific studies that have established and explained their effectiveness.

This is wrong as far as acupuncture is concerned. Wikipedia states:

Acupuncture has been researched extensively; as of 2013, there were almost 1,500 randomized controlled trials on PubMed with "acupuncture" in the title. The results of reviews of acupuncture's efficacy, however, have been inconclusive.

... and also ...:

A 2014 review in Nature Reviews Cancer found that "contrary to the claimed mechanism of redirecting the flow of qi through meridians, researchers usually find that it generally does not matter where the needles are inserted, how often (that is, no dose-response effect is observed), or even if needles are actually inserted.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#96

Post by lloeki » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 8:10 AM UTC

seer wrote: post #30

crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

Great comment and I apologize in advance for going off topic. We all have our mental models and it takes effort to re-evaluate and change them. And as the saying goes - there are no right models, only useful ones in some situations. Some are useful in more situations than others. Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with t…

True enough.

I don't really care about what people believe in, but what I do care about (and don't like about pseudoscience practices) is:

- the dilution/dismissal of scientific discourse

- the real world consequences

The discourse is schematically as follows:

- (scientist) "Foo" is true within 5 sigmas under this overwhelmingly frequent hypothesis.

- (pseudoscientist) So this is not 100%, so this may be wrong and there's room for any other explanation! Also, Newton was wrong! So scientists can be wrong, ergo you're probably wrong too! Even Einstein is probably wrong, scientists are not sure! Ergo your scientific argument (and preemptively any other) argument is dismissed! Since you can't prove me wrong I may just as well be right! Science is a cult! Maths are not real! Mathematical logic doesn't apply to the real world! Contraposition is loads of poppycock therefore in the real world if A=>B then B=>A and correlation implies causation!

A couple of acquaintances of mine are Reiki advocates. One of them has torn her knee ligaments, and refuses to be subject to surgery, instead focusing on binding them again using mind only, in spite of being regularly in pain, and doctors saying it'll only get worse with time. I can only let you imagine the discourse, acts, and consequences about global warming ("Earth is a living being and will heal itself"), I can only let you imagine the discourse, acts, and consequences about the COVID situation ("let me align your aura and it'll help you not getting sick"). I can only let you imagine the discourse, acts, and consequences on close people that got cancer.

I can respect everyone having their own beliefs, but there is a line that makes me downright unhinged.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#97

Post by normalnorm » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 8:16 AM UTC

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #23

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

> Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit subjective, which is well-being.

The "economic reasons" are just the preferences of the rich & powerful. Resources could be allocated in other ways. It is just that those that call the shots are not interested. In the US, they also managed to convince a large part of the population to act against its own interests.

I dream of an economic system that serves human beings instead of the numerical abstractions behind which the rich and powerful hide their extreme selfishness.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#98

Post by asjw » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 8:24 AM UTC

hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #23

> The ailments that Reiki seems to treat most effectively are those that orthodox medicine struggles to manage: pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort of facing not only the suffering of illness but also the suffering of treatment. This is key. Modern medicine, with the way hospitals and health insurance are run, do not and cannot address, for economic reasons, a pretty important aspect, albeit su…

> pain, anxiety, chronic disease, and the fear or discomfort

These are all treated in Italy for free by the public healthcare system which also provides psychological (or psychiatric) support, rehabilitation and pain management

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#99

Post by silveroriole » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 8:25 AM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #24

crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

3. Humans tend to feel better when other humans take care of them, pay attention to them, touch them It’s not that crazy, and it’s based in empirical observation and consistent with our biological/medical understanding.

See also: the ASMR trend. A lot of the videos are emulating personal attention and ‘social grooming’ (someone doing your makeup, haircare, shaving, etc). And reiki, crystals, tarot, palm reading, and so on are all popular subjects too! Some section of the population, those who experience ASMR properly, have a unique physical reaction to this sort of attention and touch; and it’s obvious that large sections at least find it relaxing and calming in a way that enhances their wellbeing and gives them a feeling of social connectedness. To say it’s all debunked mumbo jumbo that won’t cure cancer is to miss the point!

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#100

Post by battery_cowboy » Fri, Apr 03, 2020, 8:25 AM UTC

jgrpf wrote: post #92

battery_cowboy wrote: post #44

Who cares? Honestly, stop giving a crap about what other people do to make themselves happy, just don't try it if you don't think it will work. If no one is getting hurt, one person leaves happier and one person leaves richer, then it's a win-win-win (win-win, plus a win for society as a whole).

A lot of people are scammed though by Shamans and the like. And often times they do not leave that much happier but emotionally dependant and sometimes even broke. I've seen it plenty of times and think it's absolutely immoral.

True, but that's not as common as the vast, vast majority of people who just spend a comfortable amount of money on these things and become happier for it. We need protection against those bad actors, perhaps, but there will always be scammers in any profession. I also think those scams are small-scale in comparison to the vast "scam" that modern medicine has become, for Americans at least. Sure, the shaman can take your life savings, but he cannot additionally stick you with loans for whatever amount he wants that you cannot discharge via any means whatsoever. At least you just stand to lose everything, not lose everything and then some.