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Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#51

Post by travisjungroth »

seer wrote: post #30
crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

Great comment and I apologize in advance for going off topic. We all have our mental models and it takes effort to re-evaluate and change them. And as the saying goes - there are no right models, only useful ones in some situations. Some are useful in more situations than others. Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with t…

> Take “flat earth” model of the world. It’s not right, but it’s precise enough for the purposes of living in a village. Nothing wrong with that, its when you want to venture out, then you have to find a more precise one.

I don’t think you have to have a more precise model. The modern world is incredibly tolerant of bad models.

Last year, I visited four continents. I don’t think a single thing would have been different if I believed the world was flat. It’s not like I was flying the plane. I just bought a ticket, showed up, and tried to fall asleep.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#52

Post by connectsnk »

chrischen wrote: post #47
ALittleLight wrote: post #45

"Over the past two decades, a number of studies have shown that Reiki treatments help diminish the negative side effects of chemotherapy, improve surgical outcomes, regulate the autonomic nervous system, and dramatically alter people’s experience of physical and emotional pain associated with illness." The article links, with the phrase "a number of studies" to what seems to be one study [1]. In this study it looks l…

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

The author in this article has put it very well.

>The body’s capacity to heal itself after receiving only the simulated experience of medication or therapy is well documented. But precisely because that capacity is so well documented, reflexive dismissal of the placebo effect as “fake medicine” demands scrutiny—and is now receiving it. In late 2018, The New York Times Magazine reported on a group of scientists whose research suggests that responsiveness to placebos, rather than a mere trick of the mind, can be traced to a complex series of measurable physiological reactions in the body; certain genetic makeups in patients even correlate with greater placebo response.

TLDR: Please do not use placebo effect as a catch all term and as a pretext for not scrutinizing the experiences of millions of patients.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#53

Post by logicchains »

connectsnk wrote: post #31

Many people are commenting that Reiki is like Meditation i.e. all mumbo jumbo placebo effect. This might persuade a lot of people to reject both without going through the experience. I have been a very infrequent practitioner of meditation since 2009. I am now a very different person and there is no way for me to measure how or what has changed in me. I am way more focused, happier and might I conservatively add the…

There's a simple logical explanation why meditation works. A huge amount of suffering comes from people making value judgements about things they're thinking about: "X happened/is happening/will happen, X is bad, now I feel bad".

Meditation has two effects on this: firstly, it encourages non-thinking (or focusing on some specific thing like breathing), which means less time for random thoughts, which means less time for feeling bad because of random thoughts.

Secondly, it encourages people to reflect on the value judgements their thoughts are making, which makes them more likely to realise the subjectivity in their judgements (due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regress_argument), which makes them more likely to update their worldview into one in which fewer judgements are made. Fewer judgements means fewer thoughts cause unhappiness. This is expressed in a quote by Stoic philosopher Marcus Aurelius: "If you are distressed by something external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment."; worldview has a huge effect on how much someone suffers, and meditation encourages reflection, and reflection encourages changes in worldview.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#56

Post by hyko »

crispinb wrote: post #22

Almost more interesting than Reiki itself is the reflexive responses, bifurcating essentially into: 1. it's all mumbo jumbo 2. there's more in heaven and earth, my son Note that neither group is particularly interested in the empirical evidence, though group 1 will tend to take a louder cherry-picking feint at it. An empiricist mindset is really hard for humans to inhabit. We (scientistic hard-heads included) judge p…

These two responses are not equal, as every claim made by anyone should fall into category 1 until proven otherwise. Response 2 admits the possibility of better theories about the world being possible, while refusing to do the actual science that would prove their existence.

Claims about alternative medicine don't even get to start from this generous position because the field has produced reams upon reams of utter-and dangerous-nonsense, so the evidential bar must be set even higher to cut through that noise.

Our collective body of knowledge is not just based on a string of isolated empirical assessments, it has to be integrated into a theoretical framework. Otherwise, you're just left holding a very large bag of statistical anomalies that could basically mean thing anything you want (usually: buy my product!).

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#57

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

connectsnk wrote: post #52
chrischen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a placebo works generally then it works. Isn't all psychotherapy in a way just a placebo?

The author in this article has put it very well. >The body’s capacity to heal itself after receiving only the simulated experience of medication or therapy is well documented. But precisely because that capacity is so well documented, reflexive dismissal of the placebo effect as “fake medicine” demands scrutiny—and is now receiving it. In late 2018, The New York Times Magazine reported on a group of scientists whose…

It's even more interesting in this context. We already know that en expensive placebo works better than a cheap one, that elaborate placebo rituals work better than simple ones etc. This might explain that Reiki placebo is more efficient than Vitamin C placebo. But finding the underlying mechanisms of such actions and the ways the mind can influence subtle processes in the body would be a great breakthrough.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#58

Post by connectsnk »

lilSebastian wrote: post #39
connectsnk wrote: post #31

Many people are commenting that Reiki is like Meditation i.e. all mumbo jumbo placebo effect. This might persuade a lot of people to reject both without going through the experience. I have been a very infrequent practitioner of meditation since 2009. I am now a very different person and there is no way for me to measure how or what has changed in me. I am way more focused, happier and might I conservatively add the…

Genuinely interested, how did you get started with meditation?

I did an Art of living course back in 2009. It was a 5 day session held in evenings with an Art of living teacher.

I have been very infrequent in my practice and I might have become an absolutely fantastic human being if I was more regular in my practice. But I am easily satisfied and I am happy with where I am. There might be other avenues better than Art of living courses but I have not tried them.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#59

Post by connectsnk »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #57
connectsnk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author in this article has put it very well. >The body’s capacity to heal itself after receiving only the simulated experience of medication or therapy is well documented. But precisely because that capacity is so well documented, reflexive dismissal of the placebo effect as “fake medicine” demands scrutiny—and is now receiving it. In late 2018, The New York Times Magazine reported on a group of scientists whose…

It's even more interesting in this context. We already know that en expensive placebo works better than a cheap one, that elaborate placebo rituals work better than simple ones etc. This might explain that Reiki placebo is more efficient than Vitamin C placebo. But finding the underlying mechanisms of such actions and the ways the mind can influence subtle processes in the body would be a great breakthrough.

It might be anywhere from 1-100 years before we make this breakthrough. Most of us dont have that kind of time.

As most of us on hacker news have a very scientific attitude towards life, we can atleast experiment with it. If it works for us, then good. If it doesn't, we can move ahead.

Re: Reiki can’t possibly work, so why does it?

#60

Post by reilly3000 »

Empiricism asserts that all knowledge is derived from sense-experience. Skeptics have the audacity to deny the experience of others, relying only upon that which is measurable by an external apparatus. I hear people describe things as "not scientific" which amounts to willful ignorance- the opposite of science. Hard science doesn't assert there are human 5 senses; it merely demonstrates that there are 5(ish) taxonomies for which measurement is currently feasible.

Taking a position as a denier means one is essentially unwilling to expend the energy requisite to study a phenomenon. In our infinitely complex plane we inhabit, that is a valid strategy, given the finite energy that one can expend during their lifetime (something on the order of 16,500 Kw/h). Passively denying a subject is a low energy task, and only risks the opportunity cost of non-participation of something beneficial or of avoiding harm. Actively denying a subject is expensive. Denying climate change, or a spherical Earth, or the existence of Boston, MA, USA takes tremendous mental gymnastics, and sometimes profound time and physical resources.

My own experience with Reiki is limited, but memorable. I was standing in the 4th floor of an office near Pioneer Square in Seattle, chatting with a colleague. He told me that outside of development work, he practices Reiki. I had questions for him about it, but he insisted it was easier to show than tell. He placed his hand on my head and I felt powerful change in my state of mind and a sensation I haven't really experienced before or since. It was like... "wow" - then off to play ping-pong. It certainly gave me a wider aperture on what this life can offer, but I haven't chosen to pursue Reiki in any further depth.

You, from afar without knowing me at all, can feel free to label my experience as placebo, say I'm irrational, or deny that others could have a similar experience. Just know that as you're doing so, you're rejecting empiricism and the essence of science- which is to have more questions than answers.

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