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Planning and Managing Layoffs

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Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#141

Post by francisofascii »

nilkn wrote: post #4

Just ruminating here, but I didn’t fully understand the hesitance to do paycuts. Of course, I understand that in some cases the financial problem is severe enough that layoffs are the only option. But it’s conceivable that in many cases a simple, say, 20% cut to salaries across the board could be enough to tip the balance. Some employees will immediately start looking for another job, but that seems totally fine and…

I know of a company that did this, except it was a 1/3 salary cut. It was a cash flow problem where the company didn't want to take out of a loan for payroll. I bet top employees would not leave right away, employees would quietly start planning for the escape, then you might see a mass exodus six months down the road.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#142

Post by philjohn »

toadi wrote: post #41

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that because it is easy to know for both parties what the expectations are. Mostly you know exactly your severance pay as there are fixed rules for that in your contract. If there are mass layoffs it will trigger other rules. Can't understand the American Freedom thi…

This. My father was laid off in Belgium after working for the (US) company for 33 years and got an amazing severance package totalling almost 3 years salary. He was planning to take retirement in 3 years anyway, so it just meant he got to take it earlier, with a fully funded final salary pension.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#143

Post by philjohn »

the-dude wrote: post #93
toadi wrote: post #41

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that because it is easy to know for both parties what the expectations are. Mostly you know exactly your severance pay as there are fixed rules for that in your contract. If there are mass layoffs it will trigger other rules. Can't understand the American Freedom thi…

From a fellow European : yes, in the US firing is much easier. But hiring is much easier too.

In the UK (and probably many other European countries) it's usual to have an initial probationary period of 6 months - notice required from either side to terminate in that window is 1 week.

I don't think it's helpful to the argument to pretend that stronger worker rights make it harder to hire when all of the signs point to that being little more than a talking point that isn't based in reality.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#144

Post by newswasboring »

twomoretime wrote: post #136
newswasboring wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws. 2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours. 3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.

Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer. The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of 1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects 2. I've saved/generated $X 3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website People treat nego…

Only the first point was about lawyers. The points you mentioned are coming from a place of privilege. If it was this easy everyone would have done it. I can say all this and my employer can say "ok go work for them" and then I have to uproot all my life because my visa is tied to my work. This is just one example, and I am not going to give any more because I don't think your are writing in good faith. You are not paying any attention to what life situations are or potential power dynamics.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#145

Post by gwbas1c »

> I say what roles, not who, because that’s how you should be thinking about this. It’s not a person by person decision, it’s a role by role decision.

Careful: If you've ever worked on a team where one person clearly needed to go, that person needs to go in the layoff. Otherwise, keeping the poor performer when you lay off other people who did their jobs well will severely hurt morale.

If you don't understand what I mean, well you should consider yourself lucky that you've always worked with excellent people who knew how to do their jobs and had great attitudes.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#146

Post by helij »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #122
underdeserver wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over time I've come to disagree with this sentiment. If you're a software engineer you should consider yourself a craftsman. Treating your job as a "shift" means you don't care about your craft. The reason I'm not a founder today is that I've observed that founders don't have well rounded lives. I want 5 workdays a week to consist of 8-9 hours of work I'm invested in and care about, 8-9 hours of personal life (relati…

I think you can look at this from a mercenary perspective too. It costs nothing more to show up and work hard than it does to show up and do the minimum. You're giving up the same amount of time either way. But there's a lot more upside for hard workers, at least at firms that have a career track for software engineers. There are other variables, but other things being equal, folks who get things done tend to advance…

Never in the history of the humanity was hard work rewarded the same as speaking and looking nicely.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#147

Post by helij »

TsomArp wrote: post #85
lnsru wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was intern in 2008 and working very hard. Doing not only mandatory things, but also taking care of lab equipment and helping neighbor labs. Very loyal, no distractions, sitting in the lab until late and working probably 1,5x or even 2x more hours I was paid for. And then boom! My manager came and told, they must throw away all the interns to save the costs. Throw away me and the other intern who worked in kitchen w…

I can understand you working 100% and no more. And I can live with it if I was your manage.r But no loyalty, no team spirit? No way. For me it is a two way road. I give you flexibility to work remote some days, to arrive at 10 some days, to leave earlier others, but in exchange I expect that you some days will work more hours, arrive earlier or leave latter, and maybe work some weekends. It should be a balance.

Because of managers like you I get all of these things nicely into the contract so no one can say to me that they 'give me something like flexibility'.

What you wrote doesn't have even 0.1% of balance you speak of.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#148

Post by xapata »

rusticpenn wrote: post #86
xapata wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could have been like Taiwan and Japan. Seems like a mask mandate and diligent testing with quarantine of infected only is sufficient. Would have saved a lot of headache. And lives.

I heard the opposite about Japan. Are they really doing exhaustive testing?

It's hard to know which sources to believe these days.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#149

Post by credit_guy »

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

This is the wrong conclusion. I for one love working for my employer. I made peace with the idea that I may be subject to a layoff at some point in my career. The flip side of the coin is that I feel free to look for opportunities any time I want. My employer treats me well, I return the favor. When it's uneconomical for them to keep paying me, they'll do that, when I find a better option, I'll go too, and there's no hard feelings. For as long as the employment continues, I feel proud to do my best, and not just do the absolute minimum.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#150

Post by celdon25 »

distances wrote: post #120
kid_atticus wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a company that you don’t own I think you're missing the key part here. Most tech workers do have some ownership in the companies which muddies the calculus a little bit. But if you don't have a stake in the company you are literally trading time for money. Work more time for the same money and you're just under-pricing your labor by an equivalent amount. Also, if you need to work overtime to get good recommenda…

> Most tech workers do have some ownership in the companies which muddies the calculus a little bit. Maybe nitpicking, but I don't think this is true at all. Lots of tech workers do, sure, but I doubt it's anywhere even close to half of them.

I wouldn't even consider common stock options as a form of ownership. You are basically last in line to get any sort of compensation after an exit.
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