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Planning and Managing Layoffs

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Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#71

Post by lordnacho »

I remember laying people off during the GFC, and they all had a good laugh. Nobody was surprised. Nobody broke down, even though a couple of them had a pregnant wife to look after.

What's the secret? Communications. Don't say everything is fine if it isn't. Don't pretend that the potential saviour plans are more likely than they actually are.

Earlier in my career, I'd been through layoffs too. Management would say "this is the last round" several times. You could see teams vanishing from one day to the next. On a trading floor it's pretty obvious. But also in a major tech firm I'd worked at, it was the same, "this is the last time".

Fact is you don't know if it really is the last time, so don't say so. You can lay out the plan - staffers appreciate whatever detail management can give - and you can say why you think you're about to turn the corner. But don't act like it's a given.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#72

Post by xapata »

tyre wrote: post #52
ardit33 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids that Graduated in 2001-2003 feel the same.... those year sucked. I was a summer intern in 2002, and saw half of my group get laid off. As an intern I was cheap enough to keep around, until the economy improved in late 2003, when I got a full time offer.... 2004-2007 were good, then bamn another recession... then this.... The way money interests/lobbyist are running the economy and country, It is almost given tha…

To the latter criticism, this has nothing to do with governments pumping up stocks. It’s a pandemic that could put a third of workers out of jobs because everything is shutting down and the economy is coming to a halt. It’s not like 2008 when complex financial products f—ed it all up. (Yes there are still bad policies, yes there is corruption, yes, yes etc etc etc but the point is that this isn’t “part of the boom an…

We could have been like Taiwan and Japan. Seems like a mask mandate and diligent testing with quarantine of infected only is sufficient. Would have saved a lot of headache. And lives.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#73

Post by officialchicken »

cwyers wrote: post #66
whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life. I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yours…

That's true if you live in work-obsessed culture that believes desk time is a more important metric than productivity.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#74

Post by kid_atticus »

cwyers wrote: post #66
whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life. I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yours…

> for a company that you don’t own

I think you're missing the key part here. Most tech workers do have some ownership in the companies which muddies the calculus a little bit. But if you don't have a stake in the company you are literally trading time for money. Work more time for the same money and you're just under-pricing your labor by an equivalent amount.

Also, if you need to work overtime to get good recommendations and promotions that is not a company you want to spend your time at.

Also also, if you need to work overtime to care about the work you're doing then you should re-examine your value system.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#75

Post by ShamelessC »

taurath wrote: post #17

A bit of criticism - it “normalizes” an 8 week severance as a ceiling - maybe in the high flying startup world but any big company especially with long tenure 8 weeks is a pittance, especially to someone having been there for 5 years. May be worth a note. > While it can sound jarring to say “and today is your last day,” it’s generally better for people because it makes it clear that there is a new normal and it start…

  When you take someone’s badge most people who remain immediately starts to shun the laid off worker.
Can you clarify what you mean here? Is this something that happens in your experience? I would personally never want to shun someone who just got laid off, especially if they were a friend.

  Your respect and trust of them as a person is immediately (rightly) seen as a lie.
Am I misunderstanding you here? You're saying that the moment someone gets laid off you are justified in losing all respect for and trust of that person if you're still on the team? I have to believe people aren't that cruel in general.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#76

Post by saiya-jin »

cwyers wrote: post #66
whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life. I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yours…

That's a bit sad (an quite prevalent in some industries) viewpoint. Maybe it comes to what makes you feel satisfied with yourself and happy - if its only work, then yes above is true. But those actually having the type of work worth such a sacrifice are miniscule, I guess 1-5% of HN readers.

What about achieving happiness and self-fulfillment from other things than work? I couldn't care less about my (well paid & successful) corporate job, because after it ends, I put on harness and helmet and go climbing. Or on the weekends hiking, skiing, ski touring, paragliding, diving, and so on. Traveling around the world for vacations. I have a great wife, I have a tiny little son I love very much. Those are properly fulfilling things in life, very well worth investing one's time and energy. Plenty comes back, and even if not, its a great thing to do nevertheless.

At work, there are plenty of folks with mindset you describe. Investing themselves into corporate careers, thinking money, talking money. Most I know have pretty sad lives.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#77

Post by saiya-jin »

perceptronas wrote: post #50
toadi wrote: post #41

Seems odd... To be honest I'm from Belgium and like how layoffs are handled in my country. There is a rulebook with actual legislation behind it. I like that because it is easy to know for both parties what the expectations are. Mostly you know exactly your severance pay as there are fixed rules for that in your contract. If there are mass layoffs it will trigger other rules. Can't understand the American Freedom thi…

Expectations are handled when you sign employment contract. You are free to negotiate anything. I live in EU country with similar laws and still employees/employers negotiate additional things which are are not written in the contract (because law forbids it). American freedom - its hard to imagine somebody complaining because the person has more individual choices

That's a pure fantasy in most jobs. You either sign a full contract or bye. Unless you are an unicorn that company desperately needs, there are processes, rules, internal politics, inflexible HR and so on.

In a small startup, that's more likely but most folks in Europe don't work in startups.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#78

Post by lnsru »

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

I was intern in 2008 and working very hard. Doing not only mandatory things, but also taking care of lab equipment and helping neighbor labs. Very loyal, no distractions, sitting in the lab until late and working probably 1,5x or even 2x more hours I was paid for.

And then boom! My manager came and told, they must throw away all the interns to save the costs. Throw away me and the other intern who worked in kitchen with coffee mug and was never in the lab. I felt really stupid. Since then I do my 40 hours what I get paid for. No more, no loyalty, no team spirit for the rest of my life. I was doing 200% in last 12 years only for startups as a co-founder, not that ability work hard disappeared completely.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#79

Post by arethuza »

cwyers wrote: post #66
whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life. I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yours…

"just coasting through life"

Someone could be extremely active outside of work - its not just work that counts.

Edit: Even in the software world - what about all of the people who create stuff outside of formal "work"?

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#80

Post by biztos »

ProfessorLayton wrote: post #9

As someone who was lucky enough to graduate right into the last recession, I highly empathize with the class of 2020, it is going to be rough for everyone, but especially them. Over a decade later, and only recently have I felt like I was finding my footing career-wise. And now we're all in for another ride. I barely managed to land a job after graduating, made almost no money, got laid off, and the company collapsed…

I graduated in 1993, and had to do some pretty demeaning work to make rent before landing a decent Temp job that got me started towards a career.

Felt like I was finally in my element and ready for the big time Internet challenges by... 2001.

I was busted by the bust and didn't get back on track really until 2007, fortunately in a niche that didn't suffer much from the 2008 meltdown.

This might be just another phase of the cycle, though I admit it feels different this time, and not just because of the economic impact.

(Also, OT but: in 1993 San Francisco was cheap, friendly, pretty mellow and full of creative people. That made being broke a lot more tolerable. I wouldn't want to be 1993-me in 2020-SF.)

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