Planning and Managing Layoffs • Hacker News Board

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#131

Post by mattm » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

alacombe wrote: post #24

ryanSrich wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed that 8 weeks is not generous in any sense, especially for employees that have been at the organization for a year or more. Layoffs are different from performance based firings. My rule of thumb for layoffs is mandatory 3 months + 1 month for each year of service. Someone at the organization for 6 years deserves 6 months of severance if laid off. These are standards you have to build into your financial model.…

8 weeks sounds pretty awesome when a $100-millions company gives you 2 weeks (minimum legal here in Canada)...

It's probably a US thing. Canada has a stronger EI program so the hardship of unemployment is handled by society rather than falling solely on the hands of the employer.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#132

Post by nogabebop23 » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #76

cwyers wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true if you don't need recommendations from the people you're working with to get your next job, if you don't want to get promotions (which help you get better jobs down the road!), and if you are content to spend 40 hours a week from now until you retire just coasting through life. I think a better way to look at it is -- don't be loyal to something that can't be loyal to you. But you can and should let yours…

That's a bit sad (an quite prevalent in some industries) viewpoint. Maybe it comes to what makes you feel satisfied with yourself and happy - if its only work, then yes above is true. But those actually having the type of work worth such a sacrifice are miniscule, I guess 1-5% of HN readers. What about achieving happiness and self-fulfillment from other things than work? I couldn't care less about my (well paid & suc…

Why are their values less important than yours? Isn't it just as easy to look at what you consider this rich, fulfilling life and say "poor sucker is totally a slave to our social media culture; desperate to show us how wordly and alternative they are. Why can't they just be happy with the little things in life?"

A lot easier to find joy in your work these days vs. activities and vacations too...

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#133

Post by underdeserver » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:40 PM UTC

techybuddha wrote: post #107

underdeserver wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over time I've come to disagree with this sentiment. If you're a software engineer you should consider yourself a craftsman. Treating your job as a "shift" means you don't care about your craft. The reason I'm not a founder today is that I've observed that founders don't have well rounded lives. I want 5 workdays a week to consist of 8-9 hours of work I'm invested in and care about, 8-9 hours of personal life (relati…

You’ve never lost and loved something too much yet. This can be very bad advice for many people.

Why would you assume that?

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#134

Post by gwbas1c » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:47 PM UTC

nogabebop23 wrote: post #129

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

Except developers who are intelligent, creative, optimistic and want to get better will not accept those who just do the "bare minimum" with the mentality of "just do you shift then go home". They will build a culture that demands more and effectively pushes these voluntary baseline performers out, or more likely leave the organization and go somewhere better. I don't want to be part of things that are average and ma…

You can do both: Do you job well, take pride in your work, and go home at the end of the day.

So much of your employment relies on things that are outside of your control. Even when you have a great job that you love, it won't last forever. Your job isn't a marriage, or a parent-child relationship. At the end of the day, it's just a job.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#135

Post by throwaway8291 » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

frockington1 wrote: post #127

throwaway8291 wrote: post #99

Why pretend and cloud the idea, that the main reason a person has a "job" today is to accumulate capital for capital. As long as this notion persists (which will be for many more decades I fear) power inequalities will just mean that some will suffer more (those who do not have resources in the first place). Hey, you know, I am really sorry, but thanks for all the capital you helped us to accumulate - which we own an…

In return for helping the company build capital you were paid a monetary value in return. A quick solution to the problem you are presenting is to invest the money you were paid into other companies or start your own company so you too can have 'capital'.

I understand that it's a very broad spectrum.

However, what I am observing is that 'capital' gets its hand in any aspect of life, the formerly family owned coffee machine maker, lingerie producer and the outdoor specialist went through couple of private equity hands - for what? For injecting capital to trim down ops, expand, then get out of a position?

After watching hundreds of hours of investing conference videos and interviews there is one thing, that really got me: why is this field so sad? I believe it's because all they ever talk about what they "own". The cannot make, invent, heal, fight, cook, write, harvest or any other human activity - all they do is "own" something that is valuable to others.

Imagine kids playing in the playground and all the talk about is what each of them owns. They cannot read, write, play an instrument, tell jokes, do tricks, etc. - no, but they control those who can and are productive.

I am not sure why, but I'd rather have a kid with talents than one with lots of "assets" (even though in this world talent does not matter, if you've got the assets).

----

Warren Buffet was once asked by the audience, what you should do, if you have artistic talents and want to live them out, but you do not want to starve? He did not really care, understandably.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#136

Post by twomoretime » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 2:56 PM UTC

newswasboring wrote: post #128

twomoretime wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to be a legal expert to negotiate with your boss if you're an undercompensated employee...

1. Lawyers are not just about legality, they are trained negotiators and thinking in contract laws. 2. The manager potentially has/can get negotiation training, you have to pay out of your own pocket for yours. 3. The power dynamic is usually not in your favor, as long as unemployment is above zero in your specific field, it can never be in your favor.

Where do you work where all of management consists of lawyers? Even HR usually only keeps lawyers on retainer.

The rest shouldn't really be that difficult if you're a competent person. I don't need training to show some combination of

1. I've been productive based on X and Y projects

2. I've saved/generated $X

3. I'm undervalued based on these x salaries or this average value from $reputable_website

People treat negotiation like some kind of black magic. If your boss isn't a total asshole it isn't hard to make a case.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#137

Post by hef19898 » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #95

the-dude wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a fellow European : yes, in the US firing is much easier. But hiring is much easier too.

> But hiring is much easier too. Largely for that very reason, I believe. If it's hard to get rid of somebody, you will make extra extra extra sure that they are a very good fit.

In Germany at least, you have zero protection against being fired in the first 6 months, two weeks notice are enough. Same goes for employees wanting to quit.

I don't get the "hiring is difficult" part. While I cannot alk about Europe, too many countries with their own legislation, in germany all you need is a contract and proper registration for social security and so on. Let you accountant handle it and it's done in a couple of days tops.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#138

Post by cryoshon » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:02 PM UTC

TsomArp wrote: post #85

lnsru wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was intern in 2008 and working very hard. Doing not only mandatory things, but also taking care of lab equipment and helping neighbor labs. Very loyal, no distractions, sitting in the lab until late and working probably 1,5x or even 2x more hours I was paid for. And then boom! My manager came and told, they must throw away all the interns to save the costs. Throw away me and the other intern who worked in kitchen w…

I can understand you working 100% and no more. And I can live with it if I was your manage.r But no loyalty, no team spirit? No way. For me it is a two way road. I give you flexibility to work remote some days, to arrive at 10 some days, to leave earlier others, but in exchange I expect that you some days will work more hours, arrive earlier or leave latter, and maybe work some weekends. It should be a balance.

>It should be a balance.

the situation you describe is not a "balance". it's whatever the employer desires. you've all but guaranteed low morale. when you demand loyalty and team spirit on top of that, it justifies cynicism.

in such a situation, you should expect people to do the bare minimum.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#139

Post by wins32767 » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #57

These posts bring me to the realization that you should never go above and beyond for a company that you don’t own. Just show up, do the bare minimum to meet expectations, finish your 8 hour shift and go home and enjoy quality time with your family. This way when you get laid-off there is nothing to cry for. You can always find an occupation, but you cannot get back the time that you dedicated to fulfill someone else…

Financial capital isn't the only thing you can accumulate at a job. Building your social capital by being the person everyone wants to work with again and building intellectual capital by developing expertise are both things you can and should also invest in.

Re: Planning and Managing Layoffs

#140

Post by nilkn » Wed, Apr 01, 2020, 3:11 PM UTC

pg_bot wrote: post #51

nilkn wrote: post #4

Just ruminating here, but I didn’t fully understand the hesitance to do paycuts. Of course, I understand that in some cases the financial problem is severe enough that layoffs are the only option. But it’s conceivable that in many cases a simple, say, 20% cut to salaries across the board could be enough to tip the balance. Some employees will immediately start looking for another job, but that seems totally fine and…

I can tell you've never run a company. You're likely to lose your best employees because they know what they are worth and are unlikely to live with a pay cut because working with you is no more special than working for someone else. Losing great employees is not where you want to save money. It's extremely expensive to find, hire, and train people, and once you lose them you also lose their domain knowledge within y…

I feel like this has already been brought up elsewhere, and I don't really appreciate the tone/sentiment you opened this comment with.