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Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

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Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#481

Post by fastball »

brlewis wrote: post #471
mulmen wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

> A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? No, it just has to run in a browser.

Well it needs to be downloaded from the internet at least the first time, so it's intrinsically going to be less secure than an app that you can guarantee never connects to the internet.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#482

Post by untog »

mulmen wrote: post #449
beering wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

> A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no?

No, not in the era of "progressive web apps", which is really just a little bit of branding around interconnected APIs. The Cache API in particular means that a webapp can be downloaded and made available offline on a permanent basis. Unless it isn't actually permanent at all, which is what Apple are doing here.

The web and the App Store are just delivery mechanisms for code with different trade-offs built into them. Apple have added an extra trade-off on the web side in the name of privacy.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#483

Post by wubin »

The source clarifies that this only applies to websites run within the Safari browser.[1] PWAs added to the home screen aren't affected.

> As mentioned, the seven-day cap on script-writable storage is gated on "after seven days of Safari use without user interaction on the site." That is the case in Safari. Web applications added to the home screen are not part of Safari and thus have their own counter of days of use. Their days of use will match actual use of the web application which resets the timer. We do not expect the first-party in such a web application to have its website data deleted. If your web application does experience website data deletion, please let us know since we would consider it a serious bug. It is not the intention of Intelligent Tracking Prevention to delete website data for first parties in web applications.

[1] https://webkit.org/blog/10218/full-third-party-cookie-blocki...

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#484

Post by ajford »

mulmen wrote: post #449
beering wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

No, it's a grab for money. Releasing an iOS app requires Apple hardware, X-code, and an Apple developer license which is $100/yr.

Where as developing a PWA can be done on any hardware, and would be natively cross-platform. An offline PWA does not require an active connection, and in fact is the one of the reasons behind the idea of developing a PWA instead of a general webapp or website.

All other browsers allow the use of local storage to optimize and enhance your experience by allowing things like pre-loading data or storing your preferences. This disappears with the decision Apple made to clear storage.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#485

Post by woodson »

snazz wrote: post #466
swsieber wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A feature for who? Not for users - now there's one less avenue for developers to get them something they want. Not for developers - now they have to jump through additional hoops to make something that works cross platform. Who exactly does this benefit?

Users want to be able to log in and see their data from any device. If the whole idea is that there is no server that the data is stored on, then you can't have a sync function, can you? Do any of you have an example of a good offline-only PWA that will be affected by this?

It means you constantly have to re-login on a PWA (e.g. Twitters web client PWA).

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#486

Post by arendtio »

alkonaut wrote: post #434

Did PWA's take off? What are some famous/big PWA's now? I can't remember ever "installing" anything in a browser as an app, or even being asked if I wanted to do it. Am I misunderstanding what they are?

How should PWA take off, when Apple with a high mobile market share refuses to implement basic APIs like the Push API and other browsers can't run their own engine on iOS? It is abusive, but who cares.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#487

Post by dktp »

snazz wrote: post #466
swsieber wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A feature for who? Not for users - now there's one less avenue for developers to get them something they want. Not for developers - now they have to jump through additional hoops to make something that works cross platform. Who exactly does this benefit?

Users want to be able to log in and see their data from any device. If the whole idea is that there is no server that the data is stored on, then you can't have a sync function, can you? Do any of you have an example of a good offline-only PWA that will be affected by this?

Games with your personal high scores. Is the one that would affect me

Plus a local note-taking app I created a while ago

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#488

Post by OJFord »

restoreddev wrote: post #431

I guess this means Safari won't support persistent storage anytime soon. I was looking forward to it becoming a standard API. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/StorageMana...

Based on the table there it seems Edge had but removed support anyway?

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#489

Post by daleharvey »

dubcanada wrote: post #436

I don't understand what the problem is. I can easily go to the settings area and delete my entire browser cache (Remove All Website Data), in fact if you are running low of space it even tells you to do it. Why are people assuming things stored on a browser are a good place to store things. Nothing stored on a browser should be assumed to be forever.

I can delete data from my hard drive, why are people assuming things stored on a computer is a good place to store things. Nothing stored on a computer should assumed to be forever

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#490

Post by The_rationalist »

sj4nz wrote: post #400
briandear wrote: post #374

What’s wrong with a “normal” app? No server required and data stays only on the device. The argument that the author is building a PWA because other people abuse privacy (with apps) doesn’t make much sense. Why not build the app, respect privacy, and be done with it? LocalStorage is not a substitute for an actual database, it’s a cache. The problem with the author’s technique is that privacy minded users clear their…

The problem with a "normal" app is now you are beholden to the rules/regulations/evaluations of a third party that can easily decide without recourse that your "app" should not be in their store. Even if your app "is fine" every update and upgrade incurs a delay through the third party's reviewing process before your users receive it. If the web browsers would provide _some API_ for persistent storage without yanking…

Here's the api: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/StorageMana...
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