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Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

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Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#461

Post by arendtio »

dubcanada wrote: post #436

I don't understand what the problem is. I can easily go to the settings area and delete my entire browser cache (Remove All Website Data), in fact if you are running low of space it even tells you to do it. Why are people assuming things stored on a browser are a good place to store things. Nothing stored on a browser should be assumed to be forever.

The problem is, that it rarely happens under normal circumstances. So you might build a logic which synchronizes your data to the server but rarely has to download it as most of the time it still has a relatively current snapshot. And the few times you have to download everything, it is ok for the user to wait a while.

But if you have to wait every time your last interaction is more than 7 days ago, the whole experience will change. And supporting a reliable offline experience will be very hard to build.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#462

Post by soapdog »

slipheen wrote: post #435
veeti wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this any better?? I don't expect apps I install - native or PWA - to clear their data if I don't use them every 7 days. That's crazy!

I'm not sure I understand how it is "installed" if you aren't adding it to your homescreen? Isn't that just visiting a webpage?

the service worker is installed regardless if you add it to the home screen.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#463

Post by carlosdp »

mulmen wrote: post #449
beering wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

It doesn't have to be that way though, that's the point of PWAs. A way to use web technologies for local applications.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#464

Post by vbezhenar »

finaliteration wrote: post #372
soapdog wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not fine if you're creating apps that don't have a backend.

Honest question - If you're creating an app like that, is a PWA really the right way to go? Aren't there other options available (such as creating a native app with a SQLite database)?

What if I want to create a porn app which Apple does not allow to be present in AppStore?

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#465

Post by quotemstr »

megous wrote: post #454

How does this make sense logically? Obviously the websites that you use the most have the biggest potential and opportunity to track you. All local storage should be deleted for the most used websites at random times, at avg. several times a week, without any extensions caused by recent website usage. If this is done for privacy's sake, that is.

> All local storage should be deleted for the most used websites at random times, at avg. several times a week, without any extensions caused by recent website usage.

No matter what browser vendors do, it will never be enough for "privacy" activists.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#466

Post by snazz »

swsieber wrote: post #458
mulmen wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

A feature for who? Not for users - now there's one less avenue for developers to get them something they want. Not for developers - now they have to jump through additional hoops to make something that works cross platform. Who exactly does this benefit?

Users want to be able to log in and see their data from any device. If the whole idea is that there is no server that the data is stored on, then you can't have a sync function, can you?

Do any of you have an example of a good offline-only PWA that will be affected by this?

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#467

Post by MFLoon »

madeofpalk wrote: post #349
untog wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very rosy way of looking at it. iOS has had bugs with its “add to home screen” webapps that kicked around literally for years . If they were being “user first” they’d support it fully or not support it at all. Instead they implemented then neglected it.

All parts of Apple's platform has had bugs that have kicked around for literally years . Their native SDK is infamously under documented and has all sorts of bugs https://twitter.com/caseyliss/status/1171778706878160897 The bugs in Apple's software, whether in web or native or in documentation are not part of some nefarious plot, its just a part of Apple's mismanagement and relatively minimal resources.

> relatively minimal resources

Uh, they're the most well capitalized corporation in the world (or hovering in the top 3 plus or minus a few quarters). They have the resources to make it work if they wanted. There are undoubtedly thousands of engineers, hundreds of managers, and at least a handful of execs, working for Apple, lurking in this HN thread today, not because they're unaware of their ongoing sabotage of web standards on iOS, but because they're completely aware of it and want to take the temperature on how their latest kick to the shins of PWAs is going over.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#468

Post by vbezhenar »

soapdog wrote: post #370
hosteur wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what it is about. I welcome the move from Apple. Web devs can store state server side. They cry because tracking will be harder now.

I'm the OP and I'm crying because I'm working on apps that don't have backend so that your data is yours and never leave your computer. This is now impossible for WebKit users.

So you have to track Apple users now if you would implement backend storage. How ironic.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#469

Post by DaniloDias »

beering wrote: post #442
dubcanada wrote: post #436

I don't understand what the problem is. I can easily go to the settings area and delete my entire browser cache (Remove All Website Data), in fact if you are running low of space it even tells you to do it. Why are people assuming things stored on a browser are a good place to store things. Nothing stored on a browser should be assumed to be forever.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

Who are the “some people”?

Are any of them outside of chrome’s WebWorker team, or the community of devs that were suckered into a model that really has never gained traction for iOS?

I’m sort of sympathetic to the devs who bought in to the solution, but this looks an awful lot like a pr pressure campaign that is unhappy with how this affects googles disintermediation goals.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#470

Post by osrec »

mulmen wrote: post #449
beering wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

So you can think of absolutely no situation where a user would access a web app, and might want to store state info locally?
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