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Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

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Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#71

Post by stevenwoo »

dakrisht wrote: post #12

Some interesting data here. - Mean age of 79.5 sheds light on Italy’s extremely high fatality rates; in essence, it’s the (very) elderly that are dying due to complications from viral pneumonia. Which begs the next question... Why are they overwhelmingly treating patients with antibiotics in cases of viral pneumonia and not antivirals (Remdesivir)/ chloroquine? Sure, these are “experimental” therapies but decent data…

Asthma is another, this guy prob did not smoke, got antivirals but we’ll never know if it would have made a difference earlier or if they would try it earlier https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/glendora-man-34-dies-of-co...

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#72

Post by jeltz »

andruby wrote: post #65
circlefavshape wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What counts as a co-morbidity? Obesity seems fairly ... well, trivial. I have high (total) cholesterol. Does that count? Constipation? Itchy spot on the back of my knee?

The co-morbidities reported here are mentioned in the report (in Italian). Translated by Google: diseases N % Ischemic heart disease 117 33.0 Atrial fibrillation 87 24.5 Stroke 34 9.6 Hypertension 270 76.1 Diabetes mellitus 126 35.5 Dementia 24 6.8 COPD 47 13.2 Active cancer in the past 5 years 72 20.3 Chronic liver disease 11 3.1 Chronic renal failure 64 18.0 Hypertension and Diabetes seems very prevalent in older p…

Maybe it is just correlation between old age and hypertension, but I find it interesting how ACE2 which the coronavirus uses as its entry point into cells is also part of regulating blood pressure.

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#73

Post by derision »

becausecombi wrote: post #67
pseudolus wrote: post #3

Some excerpts (courtesy of Google translate): The mean age of deceased and positive COVID-19 patients is 79.5 years (median 80.5, range 31-103, RangeInterQuartile - IQR 74.3-85.9). There are 601 women (30.0%). The figure 1 shows that the median age of patients COVID-19 positive deaths is more than 15 years higher than that of patients who contracted the infection (median age: patients who died 80.5 years - patients w…

huh, no one else has mentioned this, am I interpreting this wrong? If 30% of deceased positives are female, then 70% are male? That's quite a big difference!

this is highly anecdotal, but my family is from a small town in italy, population of ~1500, and the men are way less healthy from a lifestyle perspective - lots of drinking, smoking, hard manual labor without lung protection, etc etc, while the women mostly stay home handling home duties and socializing

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#74

Post by Arnt »

raxxorrax wrote: post #54
Arnt wrote: post #11

I found page 3 most remarkable: 48% of those who die of covid-19 in Italy also suffer from three or more other diseases (or did recently), and 99.2% suffer from one or more.

Most people might have some conditions that just haven't been diagnosed yet. Some people are obese, diabetic smokers with high blood pressure that still have a more robust cardiovascular system to someone living perfectly healthy. Certainly not the rule, but not impossible. My physics and sports teacher dropped dead with 30-something from an aneurysm. We know the probable risk factors, but you could probably just say…

The risk factors they count are named in the PDF. They're not "all diseases known to man", they're "cancer in the past five years" etc.

Which might not be an optimal selection of things to count. It's not obvious that a small cancer three years ago ought to be counted and a bigger one six years ago not? But it's what they counted.

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#75

Post by ramblerman »

Grue3 wrote: post #59
ramblerman wrote: post #52

Summarizing the deaths, by age distribution is quite telling (page 4): - no deaths under 30 - Less than 1% of deaths under 50 - less than 4% of deaths under 60 - 87% of deaths above 70 This disease is incredibly dangerous for our elderly, and isolating them to prevent infection should be our top priority.

That's because Italy's hospitals are overcrowded and very old patients are simply not treated at all. It's a vicious circle because they're thought being less likely to survive, are denied treatment, which makes them even less likely to survive.

Triage is unfortunately applied in some hospitals, especially around Bergamo.

But you would need to provide some data to make the claim that the stats are skewed this much purely because all elderly are just cast away. Given the vast majority of hospital cases are actually the elderly.

Finally, proper ethical triage never looks at how long a patient is expected to live after their recovery as a condition.

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#76

Post by pezo1919 »

raxxorrax wrote: post #54
Arnt wrote: post #11

I found page 3 most remarkable: 48% of those who die of covid-19 in Italy also suffer from three or more other diseases (or did recently), and 99.2% suffer from one or more.

Most people might have some conditions that just haven't been diagnosed yet. Some people are obese, diabetic smokers with high blood pressure that still have a more robust cardiovascular system to someone living perfectly healthy. Certainly not the rule, but not impossible. My physics and sports teacher dropped dead with 30-something from an aneurysm. We know the probable risk factors, but you could probably just say…

"My physics and sports teacher dropped dead with 30-something from an aneurysm"

Just for clarification: did he have covid19?

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#77

Post by raxxorrax »

pezo1919 wrote: post #76
raxxorrax wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people might have some conditions that just haven't been diagnosed yet. Some people are obese, diabetic smokers with high blood pressure that still have a more robust cardiovascular system to someone living perfectly healthy. Certainly not the rule, but not impossible. My physics and sports teacher dropped dead with 30-something from an aneurysm. We know the probable risk factors, but you could probably just say…

"My physics and sports teacher dropped dead with 30-something from an aneurysm" Just for clarification: did he have covid19?

No, that happened a decade ago.

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#78

Post by xenonite »

dakrisht wrote: post #25
xenonite wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if a youngster as a higher change of survival, there are serious effects reported. Fibrosis (damage of the lung tissue) lasts for much longer (over 4 weeks) than it is known in any typical flu. And what happens after 4 weeks is still totally unclear. As we don't know yet of the long term effects, please don't take that lightly!

Source for this comment? All pneumonia’s have decreased lung function post-infection and require therapy to retain full or close to full lung function. Curious where you’re getting this info from

Sure, thank you for asking.

My source is an interview in the first German state TV station (ARD). I am sorry that I can't provide you with an English source. If you understand German, please watch https://youtu.be/IHF0IDtW6LA?t=882 from minute 14:42.

As a second source, I found a written report on the TV talk here, for which you may use, e.g., deepl.com to translate it: https://www.express.de/news/promi-und-show/corona-talk-spd-p...

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#79

Post by huffmsa »

pseudolus wrote: post #3

Some excerpts (courtesy of Google translate): The mean age of deceased and positive COVID-19 patients is 79.5 years (median 80.5, range 31-103, RangeInterQuartile - IQR 74.3-85.9). There are 601 women (30.0%). The figure 1 shows that the median age of patients COVID-19 positive deaths is more than 15 years higher than that of patients who contracted the infection (median age: patients who died 80.5 years - patients w…

Will make an unsubstantiated conjecture that men are dying younger and at a higher rate because they've experienced more prior lung damage during their work and smoking habits.

Particularly in northern Italy, which is heavily industrialized.

Re: Report on the characteristics of Covid-19 positive deceased patients in Italy [pdf]

#80

Post by huffmsa »

derision wrote: post #73
becausecombi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

huh, no one else has mentioned this, am I interpreting this wrong? If 30% of deceased positives are female, then 70% are male? That's quite a big difference!

this is highly anecdotal, but my family is from a small town in italy, population of ~1500, and the men are way less healthy from a lifestyle perspective - lots of drinking, smoking, hard manual labor without lung protection, etc etc, while the women mostly stay home handling home duties and socializing

I think prior lung damage is going to shake out as the number one prior factor in the likelihood of severe infection and probability of death.
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