Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#61

Post by JPKab » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

quicklime wrote: post #29

gdilla wrote: post #3

Should China pay some sort of reparations? Maybe in the form of contributing to a WHO preparedness fund/initiative with stocking supplies that could be deployed faster next time? China needs to pay for their 1) lack of sanitary standards surrounding their markets and 2) their coverup which exacerbated the situation.

A lot of countries did a poor job of the initial handling of the outbreak, which is why we're in this mess right now. If we're going to demand reparations from countries for a cover-up and exacerbating the situation, it shouldn't be limited to just China.

I disagree. We have to understand that this is a massive externality of two decisions made by the Chinese Communist Party:

1.) Not fully enforcing laws regarding wildlife with wet markets, and additionally not having strict enough laws based on experiences with SARS, due to domestic pressure from a sizable group supported by wet markets.

2.) Initial suppression of communications from doctors in Wuhan trying to sound the alarm, including forcing written apologies for "spreading rumors". This suppression allowed for the disease to hit a massive spike due to not cancelling Wuhan's New Years feast.

While the citizens of China were victimized by this horrifically themselves, this doesn't change the culpability of the CCP.

Yes, other countries didn't handle it, but the root cause is the CCP's decisions, both long term and short term. India has a billion people as well, and is also densely populated. We don't see diseases coming from India on a regular basis.

Edit:

I want to add that as a human being, I've been horribly disappointed for years that we have collectively helped oppress over a billion people in China by propping up a government that doesn't respect individual rights via trade. Yes, hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty, but they are under the yoke of a regime that fails them. Other governments fail their citizens as well, but you don't "dissappear" if you complain about these failings publicly.

I value the wonderful contributions and accomplishments of the Chinese people. I just wish I wasn't complicit in them being under the thumb of an authoritarian government.

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#62

Post by JPKab » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 6:09 PM UTC

cadmuxe wrote: post #56

quicklime wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of countries did a poor job of the initial handling of the outbreak, which is why we're in this mess right now. If we're going to demand reparations from countries for a cover-up and exacerbating the situation, it shouldn't be limited to just China.

People are blaming China didn't do proper job in the initial one month, but ignore what US did barely nothing in the following two months with knowing it's a dangerous virus. And also they think one organization can know everything and recognize a global Pandemic just with a few cases. Oh man, if this kind of decision maker existed, We should do whatever we can to bring him/her to the coding industry. We will have bu…

This is a straw man argument.

Most Americans are angry at their own government's response to a catastrophe, AND angry at the CCP for creating the catastrophe. (No, not the virus. The catastrophe is the virus' spread when it was preventable.)

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#63

Post by spinny » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

geogra4 wrote: post #41

onetimemanytime wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coverup, because every country has things that can cause problems for others. China should have used their resources to seal everything and everyone the minute they knew. I agree with Trump on this one, they should have stopped it there. Bats, civets were all linked to previous infections and we know bats have other viruses waiting for us

They did and now there are no new cases from local transmission.

Do you have any proof of that or any way to confirm the data they provided? Some people seem to think that a country known for lying, murdering and disappearing whistleblowers suddenly is an example of transparency and honesty

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#64

Post by atomi » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

HammockTester wrote: post #32

mc32 wrote: post #11

I wonder if this will be the final nail in the coffin for wet markets and in particular game markets, given this history. I mean not just in official proclamation but resulting in the complete disappearance even in rural backwaters.

We can only hope so. Unfortunately animal agriculture as it currently exists is just as dangerous (e.g. chicken CAFOs breeding bird flu). IMO we need to rethink meat production altogether. Meat production needs to be environmentally conscious, health/epidemiologically conscious and at least minimally animal welfare conscious and the price of meat should reflect that all of that extra work is being done.

You are absolutely right. Viruses proliferate in large groups of animals in the conditions we keep them in. So much so that we routinely euthanize millions of animals to prevent viral outbreaks. Avian flu and swine flu both can mutate into global plagues. And we continue - business as usual.

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#65

Post by andrenth » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

gdilla wrote: post #3

Should China pay some sort of reparations? Maybe in the form of contributing to a WHO preparedness fund/initiative with stocking supplies that could be deployed faster next time? China needs to pay for their 1) lack of sanitary standards surrounding their markets and 2) their coverup which exacerbated the situation.

How about reparations from the WHO, for telling countries not to close their borders for fear of “stigma”?

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#66

Post by zachguo » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

This is just a side effect of rapid urbanization. Progress in hygiene and education is not up to speed with the concentration of population.

The next one will probably be from SE Asia or Africa.

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#67

Post by frandroid » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 7:48 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #43

mc32 wrote: post #11

I wonder if this will be the final nail in the coffin for wet markets and in particular game markets, given this history. I mean not just in official proclamation but resulting in the complete disappearance even in rural backwaters.

> I wonder if this will be the final nail in the coffin for wet markets You can't stop it anytime soon. There will always be underground community wet markets. A high level engineer, that used to work for Disney, happens to be a close family friend (my brother's Godparent^). He was contracted out to work on the Ghost cities' transportation lines. As it's been documented, they were the planned destination for the forc…

What does Disney have to do with this

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#68

Post by frandroid » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

jobseeker990 wrote: post #50

mc32 wrote: post #11

I wonder if this will be the final nail in the coffin for wet markets and in particular game markets, given this history. I mean not just in official proclamation but resulting in the complete disappearance even in rural backwaters.

The UN should pass a resolution. 100% global sanctions on any country that allows these.

You might have heard of some Asian country which holds a permanent seat and veto on the Security Council, the only UN body which can effectively enforce anything...

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#69

Post by ksk » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 8:14 PM UTC

gdilla wrote: post #3

Should China pay some sort of reparations? Maybe in the form of contributing to a WHO preparedness fund/initiative with stocking supplies that could be deployed faster next time? China needs to pay for their 1) lack of sanitary standards surrounding their markets and 2) their coverup which exacerbated the situation.

I think that is a slippery slope. Once it was known, other countries did nothing to stop the spread either by allowing free travel rather than going into a lock-down mode. Each country put their economy ahead of the well-being of their citizens. The US is still allowing free travel between states knowing full well that its going to make it worse.

Re: Is China Ground Zero for a Future Pandemic? (2017)

#70

Post by ksk » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

tathougies wrote: post #52

geogra4 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Links to this?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-it-all-started-chinas-early... China misled WHO into thinking the virus wasn't contagious up until Jan 20. On Jan 14th, WHO ( https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152 ) said the virus wasn't contagious on twitter. China arrested scientist whistleblowers. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblo... To top it all off, China attempted to blame the united sta…

There's no defending any communist regime, but I think the more likely explanation is that China had no reason to suspect that it was anything other than flu for a long time. They made it worse by trying to "manage" the panic by deleting social media posts, etc. And even otherwise, they put their economy ahead of the health of their citizens (like countries are doing even today, like the US).

As far as we know it was identified as a novel pathogen on the 26th December. Its actually hard to know where to collect the sample from, and if you don't know what you're looking for, its extremely easy to miss. You can't just put a virus under a microscope. Its not unreasonable to assume that they didn't have any confirmation for a couple of weeks that the virus they sequenced was the exact same virus for all of the other cases. You need to develop a fool-proof protocol for a diagnostic test that has minimal false-negatives. No easy task to do in 2 weeks, etc, etc...