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Time to Ban Wet Markets

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Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#181

Post by arcticbull »

ferest wrote: post #179
arcticbull wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a lefty, so I think it's important to consider that viruses or diseases are often named for the first person to have them, discover them or the region in which they originated. - Hodgkins Lymphoma is named after... Thomas Hodgkin who discovered it. - Ebola is named after the Ebola River in the DRC. ( https://goo.gl/maps/dF1MMnpBBwXpAZ3k8 ) - Lyme disease is named after Old Lyme, Connecticut. ( https://goo.gl/maps…

checkout HIV checkout "Spanish flu"

Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, German Measels, Zika, Guinea Worm, St. Louis Encephalitis, West Nile too. [1]

[1] https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/30440/12-diseases-and-lu...

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#182

Post by skoutus »

jonny_eh wrote: post #38
darawk wrote: post #6

It's important not to demonize Chinese people here. However, it's at the very least equally important to ensure that their agricultural practices stop producing these pandemic viruses. This is not the first one. Not even close. This is not one of those things that could have happened anywhere and the Chinese were simply unlucky. This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices and it is extremely importan…

> This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices It's also a result of people, around the world (but mostly in China), buying into Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). It creates a market for products based on wild animals like bats and pangolins, which this virus originated from.

The wildlife trade definitely contributes to the increased likelihood that disease jump from animals to humans. However, it seems that most of the risk comes from bushmeat, or meat from wildlife that are not domesticated sources. As far as we know, the SARS outbreak was from bushmeat, for example. But China is not the only country that has a problem with bushmeat. Africa, also has a problem with bushmeat, which has been linked to Ebola outbreak. Bushmeat is a problem, and illegal poaching for "medicine" is a problem; but these are two separate phenomenons. What they have in common is the victim: wildlife.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#183

Post by atomi »

skoutus wrote: post #182
jonny_eh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices It's also a result of people, around the world (but mostly in China), buying into Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). It creates a market for products based on wild animals like bats and pangolins, which this virus originated from.

The wildlife trade definitely contributes to the increased likelihood that disease jump from animals to humans. However, it seems that most of the risk comes from bushmeat, or meat from wildlife that are not domesticated sources. As far as we know, the SARS outbreak was from bushmeat, for example. But China is not the only country that has a problem with bushmeat. Africa, also has a problem with bushmeat, which has b…

H1N1 also came from viruses from pigs in North America. So it's not just bushmeat. I think we have our share of work to do here as well.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#184

Post by tal8d »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #140
tal8d wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was happening long before the WH uttered a word, so if you really want to blame Trump for Chinese propaganda - you are going to have to argue for the concept of preemptive retaliation.

Or note the fact that members of the government outside the White House have made similar statements for some time now.

While also providing proof that those statements predate China's antics. When China was accusing everyone of fear-mongering, and hints of travel restrictions were met with speeches about the holocaust and hypocritical appeals to the WHO, which US official is to blame for that? I've been watching this thing since December, the USG is pretty much the last one to the party - China's state run media has been saying crazy stuff since day one.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#185

Post by FpUser »

skoutus wrote: post #178
darawk wrote: post #6

It's important not to demonize Chinese people here. However, it's at the very least equally important to ensure that their agricultural practices stop producing these pandemic viruses. This is not the first one. Not even close. This is not one of those things that could have happened anywhere and the Chinese were simply unlucky. This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices and it is extremely importan…

> This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices Sorry, but you seem very certain of this claim, and I don't see evidence to back it up. Please point us to evidence that Chinese agricultural practices are directly responsible for pandemic viruses. If anything, the common agricultural practices of over-using antibiotic, which the both the US and China engages in, is what most scientific studies have poin…

I suspect it wont be long before someone calls your post whataboutism. I relatively recently discovered HN and originally had high hopes bot those quickly evaporated. It looks to me that "exercise evidence-based reasoning" and HN are 2 things that do not have much in common. And the system of downvotiong does not make it any better.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#186

Post by boomboomsubban »

tal8d wrote: post #184
boomboomsubban wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or note the fact that members of the government outside the White House have made similar statements for some time now.

While also providing proof that those statements predate China's antics. When China was accusing everyone of fear-mongering, and hints of travel restrictions were met with speeches about the holocaust and hypocritical appeals to the WHO, which US official is to blame for that? I've been watching this thing since December, the USG is pretty much the last one to the party - China's state run media has been saying crazy…

>which US official is to blame for that?

Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions, and I doubt this is the only reason for those actions, I can understand wanting to downplay something like this while you're in the middle of negotiations to stop a trade war. It's not hard to imagine the US calling for an immediate closing of the borders and shelving of the trade deal.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#187

Post by Lio »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #158
Lio wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional Medicine is a disgrace. As is any other kind of “alternative” medicine regardless of which culture it springs from. It’s either medicine or it’s not medicine; there is no third category. The people peddling this stuff either either know it doesn’t work or they have no idea if it works or even harms their patients. They’re charlatans and it’s one driver for extinction worldwide. It’s the same kind of perni…

Traditional medicine includes the use of medicinal plants, which usually turn out to have actual properties.

“usually” is a very dangerous word.

It hides all the times these plants had no effect or a negative effect.

Either these plants you speak of are effective and their efficacy can be demonstrated repeatedly using trials or they’re not and someone is selling superstition.

That’s still a choice between medicine and not medicine.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#188

Post by tal8d »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #186
tal8d wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While also providing proof that those statements predate China's antics. When China was accusing everyone of fear-mongering, and hints of travel restrictions were met with speeches about the holocaust and hypocritical appeals to the WHO, which US official is to blame for that? I've been watching this thing since December, the USG is pretty much the last one to the party - China's state run media has been saying crazy…

>which US official is to blame for that? Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions, and I doubt this is the only reason for those actions, I can understand wanting to downplay something like this while you're in the middle of negotiations to stop a trade war. It's not hard to imagine the US calling for an immediate closing of the borders and shelving of the trade deal.

> Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions...

This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable. I'd argue they aren't excusable, even from a completely amoral utilitarian perspective - because nothing they've done even looks rational. Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your own infectious disease facility, isn't going to improve negotiation prospects - no rational person would think that it could. Threatening to interrupt medical supply chains during a pandemic... I can't think of a better battlecry for those who'd advocate pulling all operations out of China. Forcing workers to return to the factories and claiming that you are back at 85% capacity, when everyone has access to near real time satellite imagery proving that your coal plants aren't running, isn't going to strengthen your negotiation position.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#189

Post by mytailorisrich »

Lio wrote: post #187
mytailorisrich wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditional medicine includes the use of medicinal plants, which usually turn out to have actual properties.

“usually” is a very dangerous word. It hides all the times these plants had no effect or a negative effect. Either these plants you speak of are effective and their efficacy can be demonstrated repeatedly using trials or they’re not and someone is selling superstition. That’s still a choice between medicine and not medicine.

Things are of course not black and white...

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#190

Post by boomboomsubban »

tal8d wrote: post #188
boomboomsubban wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>which US official is to blame for that? Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions, and I doubt this is the only reason for those actions, I can understand wanting to downplay something like this while you're in the middle of negotiations to stop a trade war. It's not hard to imagine the US calling for an immediate closing of the borders and shelving of the trade deal.

> Though it does not excuse many of China's initial actions... This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable. I'd argue they aren't excusable, even from a completely amoral utilitarian perspective - because nothing they've done even looks rational. Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your…

>This qualifier, "initial", makes me think you are arguing that their subsequent actions are excusable.

Over the past months they have made many good moves, and their conduct after signing the trade deal in early January seems decent.

>Accusing the other party in trade negotiations of releasing a biological weapon, coincidentally right next to your own infectious disease facility

One member of the foreign department posting things on Twitter is not the actions of the state. Further, that man's post seemed to be made as a reply to the "US accusation" that the virus was unleashed intentionally by the Chinese. I don't understand how you can attack one while repeating the other.

And while I don't support forcing workers back to work or misleading economic reports, they're fairly common tactics worldwide.

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