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Time to Ban Wet Markets

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Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#131

Post by mschuster91 »

cwzwarich wrote: post #59
ganoushoreilly wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also so perverse around the world. Until we can provide adequate non wet market food stores and supplies, most notably at affordable pricing for these often highly impoverished areas, there isn't much for change. Further it brings into question the items that are good or bad. Is "Racoon Dog" ok or not? Can they sell "Bats"? Then as you mention, people are going to stick to what they do. Good example, how many pe…

> Further it brings into question the items that are good or bad. Is "Racoon Dog" ok or not? Can they sell "Bats"? As far as I understand things (which is only from reading articles and watching YouTube videos of people visiting these markets), most of the animals like bats, civets, pangolins, etc. that are implicated in zoonotic diseases are delicacies rather than staples. If they were banned, nobody would starve.

French eat snails and frogs. Australians eat kangaroos. Americans eat alligators.

People across the world eat local food as delicacies or sometimes as staple foods. What is so different about Chinese wildlife?

What matters and should be fixed is sanitary standards, not what kind of meat the Chinese eat.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#132

Post by philwelch »

derefr wrote: post #15

So, what’s the difference between a “wet market” and the sort of familiar farmer’s market of butchers/fishmongers/etc. that five-star restaurants source from all over the world? This article seems to be doing a motte-and-bailey of grossing you out with things that are just “regular meat wholesaler things” (e.g. fresh meat sitting out on ice without refrigeration) and then moralizing about the specific kinds of meats…

The relevant differences, to my view, are the ones that allowed a pandemic coronavirus to jump from the Chinese bat population to the global human population over the course of just a few months. The specific details are a question for experts in the field, but something clearly went wrong here and it's important for the sake of the entire world to make sure it doesn't go wrong again.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#133

Post by boomboomsubban »

duxup wrote: post #57
tru3_power wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got any info on point 6? Did they really start that rumor?

They have been telling their own people source of the virus is the US: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-ch...

One under director of the Foreign Affairs office posted it on Twitter, a site blocked in China. By this logic, the US is also telling their own people that the virus is a biological weapon because one senator said it on Fox News.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#134

Post by kleer001 »

kccqzy wrote: post #67
derefr wrote: post #15

So, what’s the difference between a “wet market” and the sort of familiar farmer’s market of butchers/fishmongers/etc. that five-star restaurants source from all over the world? This article seems to be doing a motte-and-bailey of grossing you out with things that are just “regular meat wholesaler things” (e.g. fresh meat sitting out on ice without refrigeration) and then moralizing about the specific kinds of meats…

> So, what’s the difference between a “wet market” and the sort of familiar farmer’s market of butchers/fishmongers/etc. that five-star restaurants source from all over the world? That's exactly the question I have. How are these Chinese markets fundamentally different from, say, the Japanese Tsukiji fish market? Taking a look at pictures like https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vendors_begin_sell... it doesn't…

The key is number of different living species, let alone genuses and families of animals.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#135

Post by fspeech »

Leary wrote: post #51

Let's think about how these viruses occur. They jump from one species of animal (dead or alive) to humans. How can we pragmatically reduce the risk? 1. Ban markets where two different species are kept close to each other. 2. Identify species that are high risk. Ban eating them if they are not essential (other than domesticated animals). 3. For domesticated animals, have tough safety regulations. 4. For villages/citie…

Wild bats can live atop a market or somewhere else with feces picked up by animals living below. Also patient zero is thought to be not associated with the Huanan Market, although the first discovered major cluster did happen there.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#136

Post by Traster »

holtalanm wrote: post #58
Traster wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wet markets? Do you want to be able to go to a market and buy fresh fish? Do you think that's an option that should be available to you or to your favourite restaurant owner? Because if so, then well done, you're one of the people that think these markets are ok. Edit: Here's Gordon Ramsey giving you a guide on how to buy good fish (spoiler: he's at a wet market) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GTTXJKZ08Q

that isn't a wet market. apparently just regular food markets are considered wet markets by people that don't know what a wet market is. those fish are DEAD. one staple of a wet market is LIVE ANIMALS.

So I'm hearing you want to ban all sea food restaurants.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#137

Post by philwelch »

derefr wrote: post #82
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, what’s the difference between a “wet market” and the sort of familiar farmer’s market 1) The wet market is full of live animals in close proximity and very unsanitary conditions. So pathogens are more likely to still be alive, and can jump between diverse hosts, not just to humans. 2) The wet market is full of non-domesticated , exotic animals which carry pathogens humans are not acquainted to.

Re 1: you’re probably picturing your local butcher shop. Don’t. Picture a pier in a coastal town. The lobsters? Alive. The oysters? Alive. In close proximity? Certainly. Sitting right beside a bunch of gutted fish and processed chum? Yup. That’s a wet market. You can’t name one thing going on in Wuhan that doesn’t happen on such a pier. Even the general approach of “whatever we catch, we sell” is the same. And yet, n…

People do, sometimes, get sick from shellfish. Some ancient cultures reacted to this by creating a food taboo against shellfish (I believe Jews and Muslims do this). Other cultures have implemented monitoring for "red tide" conditions and restrict shellfish harvesting accordingly.

As human beings, when we make a mistake that leads to diseases that kill people, we do what we can to avoid making that same mistake twice. I'm not sure why this is an objectionable or questionable notion.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#138

Post by thundergolfer »

brodouevencode wrote: post #87

Why not fix the root of the problem and remove the totalitarian socialist regime forcing it's citizens to resort to eating wild animals from questionable sources because of the lack of economic opportunity available to them. Forgive the crassness there but in a fairer less restrictive economy this almost certainly wouldn't have been a problem.

Chinese people are not forced into using Pangolins and Bats in Chinese herbal medicine. Also, plenty of capitalist countries have wet markets. The author literally talks about her experiences in Singapore.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#139

Post by kleer001 »

darawk wrote: post #6

It's important not to demonize Chinese people here. However, it's at the very least equally important to ensure that their agricultural practices stop producing these pandemic viruses. This is not the first one. Not even close. This is not one of those things that could have happened anywhere and the Chinese were simply unlucky. This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices and it is extremely importan…

It's important not to confuse a people with their government, especially when said government is totalitarian and eminently corrupt.

> could have happened anywhere

Yes, in the same sense that anyone can win a lottery. But don't get innumeracy here. China is huge and the combinatorics of wet market contamination push it several orders of magnitude in probability away from any other place on the earth. Yes, even from African bush meat markets.

> This is a direct consequence of their agricultural practices

... of wild meat being disproportionately supported by the government.

> if a little bit of cultural shaming works towards preventing the next pandemic, then I think that's pretty well worth it at this point.

I'm not entirely sure why race and racism keep coming up in this discussion. It has nothing to do with race, only nation state and culture, sanitation and biology.

But sure, ok.

Re: Time to Ban Wet Markets

#140

Post by boomboomsubban »

tal8d wrote: post #121
_jal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(6) is a direct response to the White House's continued use of 'Wuhan virus', 'Kung Flu' and other racist/shitty deflection garbage. I'm not defending it, but it isn't happening in a vacuum.

It was happening long before the WH uttered a word, so if you really want to blame Trump for Chinese propaganda - you are going to have to argue for the concept of preemptive retaliation.

Or note the fact that members of the government outside the White House have made similar statements for some time now.
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