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U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

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Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#171

Post by angry_octet »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #32
angry_octet wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is based on discrete data from a graph built from phone calls, fixed line locations and SMS/email meta data. It doesn't have (from the Snowden dump) selectors for intersecting location tracks. TBH, I just don't think that is the way the FBI finds dead drops.

Was based. They haven't been swimming in place for ten years.

They were already drowning in data, and as reported recently, basically no arrests from it in years. It can't detect terrorists -- no Americans, not foreigners, fascist or religious extremists, any better than stuff the FBI was already doing.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#172

Post by borvel »

ddmma wrote: post #21

‘in moments of crisis, people are willing to hand over a great deal of power to anyone who claims to have a magic cure—whether the crisis is a financial meltdown or, as the Bush administration would later show, a terrorist attack’ (Naomi Klein, The Shock Doctrine)

Things don't happen by coincidence. If we ever wake up from this human containment experiment, we may find ourselves in a world where the panopticon is already in place, and there is no escape . The intelligence agencies are watching us. The tech companies are watching us, and many people in this forum have contributed to that. 5G is the new incarnation of the surveillance state. It connects with every available device in its vicinity. It can generate 3D images of the insides of buildings. But the mm frequencies are absorbed by the transmitter's surroundings, so we need transmitters everywhere. If the frequencies get absorbed by trees, then they also get absorbed by the human body and brain. This massive project is not about giving people faster internet speeds.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#173

Post by catalogia »

fatjokes wrote: post #155

The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?) The lack of trust in the US is really disappointing. Americans are so proud of its d…

Some of the things you're saying seem contradictory (American politicians are rarely imprisoned for their crimes, therefore Americans should be more trusting of their government? That seems completely backward) so forgive me if I've misunderstood you completely. With that said...

> "The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?)"

South Korea isn't all sunshine and roses either. They had numerous military coupes in post-war half of the 20th century. One of their dictators was sentenced to death for massacring hundreds of pro-democracy protestors, but was then pardoned for this. Things might not be so bad in South Korea currently, but the nastier stuff is still in living memory today. South Koreans would be wise to tread carefully when empowering their government. I think the cautious attitude modern Germans have towards these matters is a good approach: "Never again" rather than "It could never happen again."

As for the attitudes of Americans, no organization nor individual is entitled to trust; trust must be earned. Insofar as Americans don't trust their government, it's because their government hasn't earned their trust. On the contrary, the American government has frequently violated whatever little trust anybody has in it. Modern America may not have any recent military dictatorships like South Korea, but there is nevertheless a lot of disturbing unpleasantness in recent history.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#174

Post by ASalazarMX »

chadlavi wrote: post #140
throwaway97777 wrote: post #80

Well, buckle up folks. Android's GLS service has an absolute insane data ingestion pipeline consisting of sensor fusion from GPS, Wifi, accelerometer, barometric data, and cell tower locations. It's accurate to within meters, can locate you inside buildings, can count your footsteps, and even knows what floor you've been on. It's been used by Google to tune its indoor WiFi maps and improve location accuracy for years…

Seems like a good time not to have a phone made by a company whose profits mainly come from selling you data. oH BUt It'S NoT a waLLeD GArdEn!1 ffs.

I use iOS, but the iron grip Apple has on its walled garden puts advanced users at great disadvantage.

You want a privacy-friendly browser like Firefox? No, you are only allowed to use a Firefox skin on good old Safari instead.

You want local ad/tracker blocking? No way, you are allowed to use a VPN instead, and hope it doesn't sell your data too.

You want to jailbreak and stroll outside the corral? Better hope iOS keeps having zero-days, because there's no official way, and Apple actively works against the unofficial way.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#175

Post by tempestn »

thymolu wrote: post #111
tempestn wrote: post #26

The government tracking everyone's location all the time would be/is a gross infringement on privacy. The government tracking everyone's location for a limited time period in order to curb a deadly epidemic seems much more reasonable. The difficulty is trusting them to give back that power when the crisis is over. If not for the experience of the Patriot Act, I'd be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt ther…

Is it reasonable to track everyone's detailed location during a pandemic though? What purpose does it serve in the absence of good molecular testing info, which would be an even grosser violation of privacy? General levels of social distancing can be gleaned without phone location info. All you need to do is have police drive around and look. The problem with requests like this, for detailed phone data, is that every…

It's very helpful, because as soon as someone has symptoms or tests positive, you automatically know everyone they've come into contact or close proximity with, and can have those people isolate. You can also better determine whom to test, since there is nowhere near the testing infrastructure to blanket test everywhere.

In China they also have an app where anyone can see locations where an infected person has been, and how recently, both so they can avoid those places, but also so they can feel more confident being out in society otherwise (in areas without significant current outbreaks). This video demonstrates how it works in one Chinese city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=YfsdJGj3-jM&...

I agree with many of the problems pointed out, but it does appear that the benefits during the pandemic would be significant.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#176

Post by tempestn »

kijin wrote: post #116
tempestn wrote: post #26

The government tracking everyone's location all the time would be/is a gross infringement on privacy. The government tracking everyone's location for a limited time period in order to curb a deadly epidemic seems much more reasonable. The difficulty is trusting them to give back that power when the crisis is over. If not for the experience of the Patriot Act, I'd be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt ther…

There is no need to track everyone's location, even for a limited time. South Korea only tracks the locations of people who were confirmed to have been infected, and cross-checks their location data with CCTV footage as well as credit card records. That's a lot of data, but only for certain people. For each case outside of the Daegu area, local governments are tasked with publishing a list of locations and timestamps…

Once you know someone was infected, you need to go back and see where they've been up to that point. That's only possible if you're tracking everyone. Of course you don't need to keep the tracking data on everyone for more than ~14 days.

Yes, there are other ways to do this tracking and contact tracing, but they are much more labor-intensive and imperfect. Governments can and should still do this, but once a certain percentage of the population becomes infected, it's no longer feasible. Also the more contacts that are missed through these tracking measures, the more potential avenues for spread. Hence the attractiveness of a system that would both be more comprehensive and require much more manual work.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#177

Post by crowtoe76 »

throwaway97777 wrote: post #80

Well, buckle up folks. Android's GLS service has an absolute insane data ingestion pipeline consisting of sensor fusion from GPS, Wifi, accelerometer, barometric data, and cell tower locations. It's accurate to within meters, can locate you inside buildings, can count your footsteps, and even knows what floor you've been on. It's been used by Google to tune its indoor WiFi maps and improve location accuracy for years…

5G is the next piece of the puzzle in the surveillance dystopia. Consider how much money has been spent to erect it. Who is paying the bill? Telecom companies are freely able to sell the data they accrue - that was the first step. 5G connects to every IoT device you own. It can make 3D representations of its surroundings https://www.here.com/en/company/newsroom/press-releases/2020... . It maps out the insides of buildings. It knows where people are located, by Verizon's own admission https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmYk-yk0FXw . This is not about giving people faster internet speeds, or miraculous rescues after natural disasters.

Of course, the range of the transmitters is lower because the signals get absorbed by materials in the way. Trees and buildings absorb the radiation, and attenuate it, and thus, to be effective requires the installation of untold numbers of transmitters covering the world. If trees and buildings absorb the radiation, you can bet that your body and brain absorb them as well. We used to keep cell towers far away from people's homes; now we are putting higher frequency transmitters right in front of them. 5G is for surveillance and control. It is a weapon and this weapon is being pointed into people's bedrooms.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#178

Post by viraptor »

nathan_compton wrote: post #142
viraptor wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has already been unwittingly uploading Majority have been doing it unwittingly, true. But you do get services in return. I actually know about the collection, and in case of Google, in my opinion I get compensated in a reasonable way. I'm contributing to wigle and osm as well to counteract the monopoly, but in practice - it's worth it. We could attach some risk to everything and consider what would happen if gov ab…

I don't want to call you out personally, but I absolutely hate how servile this attitude is. Its as if you can't even imagine a world where you get some of these benefits but where your privacy is protected either legally or technically. Both are totally possible, but your lazy attitude about it is part of the problem. One of these days all this data we've just been casually giving out is going to be used for a pogro…

Yes we need a model where this can be done on a large scale with the way to compensate that doesn't involve private data. But realistically we just don't have that model. We can imagine the world where that's the result. The hard part is imagining how did we get there, and that's really not trivial - anyone has a chance to do it and succeed right now and it's just not happening.

Then there's the technical issue of: We can't guarantee no collection right now, without rebuilding internet from scratch. Then we need to solve the spam/credible information problem again without existing identity information.

So again, unless you want to live in a disconnected undocumented commune, you're drawing your own acceptance line somewhere. If you don't have own solutions to propose, calling others lazy is a bit of glass house situation.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#179

Post by viraptor »

raxxorrax wrote: post #159
viraptor wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has already been unwittingly uploading Majority have been doing it unwittingly, true. But you do get services in return. I actually know about the collection, and in case of Google, in my opinion I get compensated in a reasonable way. I'm contributing to wigle and osm as well to counteract the monopoly, but in practice - it's worth it. We could attach some risk to everything and consider what would happen if gov ab…

The thing is that you can participate in modern society without Google needing to track you. It isn't even hard to imagine.

Without Google, yes. But I said: this applies to everything. Do you want medical records staying with your doctor? Do you want a driving license? Do you want a passport? Do you want to register the birth of your kids? It's where you draw the line of convenience -vs- privacy.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#180

Post by fatjokes »

catalogia wrote: post #173
fatjokes wrote: post #155

The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveillance infrastructure to tackle this problem while maintaining a vibrant democracy. (When's the last time the US actually imprisoned a leader? Or even held a powerful person to account without pardon?) The lack of trust in the US is really disappointing. Americans are so proud of its d…

Some of the things you're saying seem contradictory (American politicians are rarely imprisoned for their crimes, therefore Americans should be more trusting of their government? That seems completely backward) so forgive me if I've misunderstood you completely. With that said... > "The conversation is dominated by the fear of gov't abuse. So few point to how successfully South Korea has leveraged their vast surveill…

I don't think you've misunderstood, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that South Korea is all "sunshine and roses".

However, given that it seems that the American gov't hasn't earned its citizens trust after ~300 years, perhaps it's time to try something very different, or at least have an open mind to suggestions. Several countries now have demonstrated a range of options: China, SK, Taiwan, Singapore. Some are authoritarian, others are democratic. It may be time to stop arguing why each case won't work here and give it a chance.

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