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U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#111

Post by thymolu »

tempestn wrote: post #26

The government tracking everyone's location all the time would be/is a gross infringement on privacy. The government tracking everyone's location for a limited time period in order to curb a deadly epidemic seems much more reasonable. The difficulty is trusting them to give back that power when the crisis is over. If not for the experience of the Patriot Act, I'd be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt ther…

Is it reasonable to track everyone's detailed location during a pandemic though? What purpose does it serve in the absence of good molecular testing info, which would be an even grosser violation of privacy?

General levels of social distancing can be gleaned without phone location info. All you need to do is have police drive around and look.

The problem with requests like this, for detailed phone data, is that everyone can imagine vague benefits in the abstract, and wants to be helpful, so you're more willing to cede protections of privacy (which are ultimately protections of liberty). But those vague abstract benefits don't necessarily translate into actual benefits if you think it through.

I don't see anything necessary about phone surveillance at this time whatsoever. What is necessary is mass testing.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#113

Post by op03 »

bscphil wrote: post #42
guscost wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve regressed to my cynical default in the past few days, but “a large institution that I would trust with this authority” sounds like pure fantasy.

I don't know, maybe it is. Maybe the politics of our world simply are that cynical and won't allow for such a thing to exist. But I guess I'm hoping it isn't. I'm trying to imagine how a non-authoritarian institution would work; it wouldn't have the "authority" to compel anyone to turn over their data, but just about everyone would have enough trust in the community and its decision making process to be okay with it.…

It exists. Its not that people "don't allow" non-authoritarian institutions/solutions. Its that they have their own limitations in dealing with complexity. Rationality is Bounded. Know what the bounds are. Read some Herbert Simon - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisficing

Look at the EU. There is no dearth of cockups there, even though their instinct at everything is non-authoritarian.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#114

Post by MaxBarraclough »

mrkeen wrote: post #63

Isn't this already the case? Even before the smartphone era, haven't you always been revealing your location to your local cell towers?

Your telco knows which tower you're connecting to, yes, otherwise the system would never work.

As the title makes clear, this is about the government gaining access to that information.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#115

Post by petra »

bscphil wrote: post #28

The interesting thing about ideas like this is that they reveal how authoritarianism during times of stability does a terrible amount of damage during times of crisis. This is the sort of problem that could be solved in a better world; collecting location data to find interactions between people would allow you to get them tested faster and prevent a disease from spreading. But it simply can't be done in this country…

But the data already exists. Google has it.

The smallest step up from that is running an open-source algorithm on Google's servers, for corona detection.

From that situation, maybe we could figure out a way that people would trust, enough ?

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#116

Post by kijin »

tempestn wrote: post #26

The government tracking everyone's location all the time would be/is a gross infringement on privacy. The government tracking everyone's location for a limited time period in order to curb a deadly epidemic seems much more reasonable. The difficulty is trusting them to give back that power when the crisis is over. If not for the experience of the Patriot Act, I'd be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt ther…

There is no need to track everyone's location, even for a limited time.

South Korea only tracks the locations of people who were confirmed to have been infected, and cross-checks their location data with CCTV footage as well as credit card records. That's a lot of data, but only for certain people. For each case outside of the Daegu area, local governments are tasked with publishing a list of locations and timestamps -- easily visualized on a map -- to help others figure out if they were in the same place at the same time as an infected person. There is no need to track the other people, as they would show up at testing centers on their own. Also, the people in charge of doing all the tracking have no obvious ties to law enforcement. The government is not a monolithic institution; there are both legal and technical barriers to sharing data among the various agencies. The police in S.K. only gets involved when known-infected people refuse to cooperate, since it's a crime to interfere with an epidemiological investigation.

I'm not sure who "the feds" referred to in the article are, but if they have any ties to law enforcement or are asking for data about an unnecessarily large number of people, beware!

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#117

Post by fyp »

It would be so useful if I got a notification if I happen to have crossed paths with a person who later turned out to be infected so I can get tested too. This will preempt so many asymptotic transmissions.

Such apps are already deployed in china: https://youtu.be/YfsdJGj3-jM?t=303

We don't trust the government but what if it's just a private company who does it? Google already has your location info: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline They are definitely already using the information in aggregate to provide traffic jam info. Hell I am sure facebook already does this for suggesting friends too. On the balance of privacy vs social good, I don't think there's even much slippery slope left to protect.

Re: U.S. govt, tech industry discuss using location data to combat coronavirus

#118

Post by viraptor »

throwaway97777 wrote: post #80

Well, buckle up folks. Android's GLS service has an absolute insane data ingestion pipeline consisting of sensor fusion from GPS, Wifi, accelerometer, barometric data, and cell tower locations. It's accurate to within meters, can locate you inside buildings, can count your footsteps, and even knows what floor you've been on. It's been used by Google to tune its indoor WiFi maps and improve location accuracy for years…

> has already been unwittingly uploading

Majority have been doing it unwittingly, true. But you do get services in return. I actually know about the collection, and in case of Google, in my opinion I get compensated in a reasonable way. I'm contributing to wigle and osm as well to counteract the monopoly, but in practice - it's worth it. We could attach some risk to everything and consider what would happen if gov abused it, but we'll all have some threshold of saying "I'm ok with it in exchange for participation in modern society" (it can be re-evaluated later of course)

The alternative is to not accept any of the risks and live in a disconnected commune. Which is ok if that's what you're after, but... that won't apply to most people.

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