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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#271

Post by mkl »

dumdumdum123 wrote: post #178
threatofrain wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people should be allowed to wear masks, but I think that a lot of this information, including a very full vision about what's going to happen in the next 6 months to 1 year, needs to come from CDC and other major institutions. Everyone on the ground having little ad hoc debates doesn't seem like it will converge onto a nationally organized solution. The fact that this is happening is symptomatic of the lack o…

HN has users from many countries, not just America. And general advice in my country is to wear mask around. Journals share step by step tutorials on how to make them. In some cities, public transport wont allow you in without one (you can improvise with scarf or something). Some stores and pharmacies wont allow you inside without one either. Politicians in photos and personalities wear masks and I think it is to nor…

It's not a meme, it was and is official advice from many places.

E.g. WHO: "a medical mask is not required, as no evidence is available on its usefulness to protect non-sick persons." https://www.who.int/publications-detail/advice-on-the-use-of...

NPR: "the scientific evidence that 'there might be a benefit for people in the community wearing [surgical] face masks is very, very meager.'" https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/01/29/8005317...

Then there's places saying the opposite: "Any type of general mask use is likely to decrease viral exposure and infection risk on a population level, in spite of imperfect fit and imperfect adherence" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/

I don't know what to think, but I've ordered some (surgical) masks.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#272

Post by coldtea »

simonh wrote: post #261
coldtea wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Turning the clock back is not a good idea. Might be a more liveable, more resilient, better for the environment, and for quality of life (which is not the same as "more gadgets") idea though...

It's hard to see how lower paid jobs are more liveable or provide better quality of life, or how smaller scale and therefore less efficient manufacturing would be better for the environment. I just don't see how these outcomes are supposed to arise. More resilient, ok maybe, but surely there are other ways that resilience could be achieved through e.g. rolling stockpiling or maintaining flexible manufacturing capabil…

>It's hard to see how lower paid jobs are more liveable or provide better quality of life

We had higher paid jobs (or more yield per job, a single working person could support a family, buy a house, send kids to college) in the 50s and 60s for example, so I'm not sure why "turning back time" means lower paid jobs (or less purchase capacity).

Give me necessities (house/rent, food, taking care of kids, college, etc) and more freedom/livable work, and I can live without 90% of modern "must haves", from smartphones to same-day-delivery from poorly-paid adults in wharehouses working 10-hour shifts in diapers to send me Amazon Prime goods made in China...

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#273

Post by nerdponx »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #166

Not all masks are N95 people. It's crazy the amount of grandstanding and virtue signaling going on here. I have had a P100 mask for years with filters in stock, and I am wearing it out on town if I have to. https://www.coopersafety.com/respirator-types

It was funny to see all the disposable N95 masks sold out at the hardware store, but all the reusable respirators with replaceable P95 cartridges still in stock.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#274

Post by satanspastaroll »

echelon wrote: post #89
bootlooped wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you in once sentence say we can employ workers previously displaced by automation, and in the next sentence assert that we can produce these goods at a competitive price with automation?

I should proofread and given examples. Lack of caffeine from WFH isn't helping me. There are many types of automation. Grocery workers (cashiers, stockers) are replaced with robotics and self-checkout (which automates pricing and theft detection) that removes them from the equation. Automobile machinists and doctors are supplemented with robotics that let them do higher-precision work and avoid mundane and/or stressf…

> self-checkout

A self-checkout is not automation, it's simply transferring the same amount of work from the paid employee to the customer

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#275

Post by mkl »

1996 wrote: post #27
treparist wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. /Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

> Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good Evidence required. If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing something. I read a comment the other day on how many efforts are impeded by the "quest for perfection" I know such homemade masks are not 100% proof. But even if they only work t…

> If mist forms on my glasses from breathing, I assume the mask must be doing something.

That just means the mask doesn't fit well, and air is going in and out the top instead of through.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#276

Post by satanspastaroll »

axaxs wrote: post #133
arcticbull wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank. I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, speci…

Automation really is all progress made by humans. Chainsaws replace hand-saws, and is 'automated' sawing.

The less work is required to produce goods, the better it can compete (in price). This makes it so that you _don't have to_ work as much to achieve the same quality of life

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#277

Post by snarf21 »

_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

This is the conundrum. People want manufacturing here and also want it to be super high paying with skills learned in a few days. People also want to buy things at the dollar store. If all the things at the dollar store were made by US workers, there wouldn't be dollar stores. Dollar stores exploded after Clinton opened up trade with China. Want people really want is buying power even if they don't understand it. It is also why I personally feel we are better off with removing all wage taxes on the poor than trying to push minimum wage higher and higher. Rich people don't shop at Wal-Mart. If everyone there makes $20/hour, it just makes it more expensive for the same people who now make "more" money (and they'll pay more taxes). If costs rise just like wages, buying power doesn't increase and could actually go down even if someone "makes" more.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#278

Post by toyg »

wazoox wrote: post #257
nabla9 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true that US or any other developed country have lost their manufacturing base. The rest of the economy has grown faster than manufacturing. Developed countries have moved into high-tech, high productivity, more capital intensive manufacturing with complex supply chains. If you want to bring back low productivity products into your country, you must accept wage decline, slower growth and lowering quality of…

300 to 800 factories yearly closed their doors in France since the introduction of the Euro. Italy faces a lesser but still steep industrial decline. In the meanwhile, industrial output boomed in the German hinterland of Eastern Europe.

Apart from the arguable “yearly”, that’s just efficiency in practice. When you look at the US, you see the same thing: there isn’t a large movie industry in each state, but there is one Hollywood (and one Broadway for theatre). Attracting all talent and capital from the entire continent allows for a level of economies of scale and quality refinement that makes it absolutely dominant worldwide. The same process happened for Silicon Valley / Bay Area, or even Detroit back in the day - it’s not like they were only making cars for Illinois and immediate surroundings...

I’m Italian and I can see our country becoming such a centre of attraction in certain fields (fashion and advertising in Milan, for example; food in Emilia; motor-racing in Romagna; tourism in Tuscany...). I’m not terribly worried that our widget-making capabilities have lowered - we are still paying the economic and social price of 60s-style industry in some areas (Taranto, Pozzuoli etc).

In the end it always boils down to this annoying tribalism - in a global world, thinking that French and Germans and Italians and Spanish must be separate and autonomous little tribes, is as silly as thinking that Nice or Lyon should be completely separate and autonomous from Paris and Calais.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#279

Post by mehrdadn »

snarf21 wrote: post #277
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

This is the conundrum. People want manufacturing here and also want it to be super high paying with skills learned in a few days. People also want to buy things at the dollar store. If all the things at the dollar store were made by US workers, there wouldn't be dollar stores. Dollar stores exploded after Clinton opened up trade with China. Want people really want is buying power even if they don't understand it. It…

> It is also why I personally feel we are better off with removing all wage taxes on the poor than trying to push minimum wage higher and higher.

Confused, are you under the impression the entirety of everyone's wages is taxed in the United States?

P.S. On your larger point: I'm not sure in what world you think 0% tax is a substitute for minimum wage. It certainly does not prevent you from earning atrociously low wages (and having correspondingly abysmal purchasing power). It only means the government won't take any of your measly earnings. Whereas minimum wage is designed to solve exactly that problem.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#280

Post by thu2111 »

kilroy123 wrote: post #229
gauravjain13 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, exactly. America has manufacturing talent, but not at the scale required for a manufacturing economy. (Source: ~2 decades in global manufacturing.)

So what can we do as a nation to change that? Should we even try at this point?

Tariffs. The US has already started!
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