Why N95 masks are hard to make • Hacker News Board

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#161

Post by nl » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:23 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #103

droithomme wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's false and you are wrong and are posting dangerous misinformation that is harming society. If I am infected it protects others. If I am not infected it protects me.

Surgical masks are not shown to have any ability to prevent healthy people from getting sick with covid-19. https://www.health.gov.au/resources/publications/coronavirus...

I'm from Australia, and I know how to read government documents here. They very rarely lie, but you have to read them very precisely.

If you are well, you do not need to wear a surgical mask as there is little evidence supporting the widespread use of surgical masks in healthy people to prevent transmission in public.

They can say "little evidence" because only a few recent studies show that.

"A common claim is that surgical masks do not protect against respiratory viruses. This is not true. Several peer-reviewed studies in medical journals have found that correct and consistent use of surgical masks in household or community settings conferred a significant degree of protection against influenza, severe acute respiratory syndrome and other respiratory virus infections, especially when combined with hand hygiene."

and

"Another misconception is that surgical masks should only be worn by symptomatic individuals. In fact, surgical masks are effective when worn by both respiratory virus-infected persons and their contacts. Furthermore, it is well recognised that even asymptomatic Covid-19 patients can still be infectious to others, rendering this recommendation inapplicable to the current pandemic.

Like other respiratory viruses, Sars-CoV-2, the virus causing Covid-19, is largely transmitted by droplets from infected persons. Therefore, the scientific evidence in favour of mask use against other respiratory viruses is generalisable to Covid-19."

and

"have no hesitation in recommending universal mask usage for people living in neighbourhoods with community Covid-19 transmission"

By Dr Siddharth Sridhar, clinical assistant professor, Department of Microbiology, Li Ka Shing Faculty of Medicine, University of Hong Kong

https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3075103/coronav...

If you prefer, try this:

In this pragmatic, cluster randomized clinical trial involving 2862 health care personnel, there was no significant difference in the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among health care personnel with the use of N95 respirators (8.2%) vs medical masks (7.2%).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6724169/

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#162

Post by tanilama » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:32 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #32

Leary wrote: post #26

"Currently, of the 200 million masks China makes a day, only 600,000 are N95 standard masks, used by medical personnel, according to the National Development and Reform Commission, a state planning body. " Wow, that is not enough.

That’s 3 N95 masks for 200,000 people every day. China meanwhile has over 3 million doctors. So, production clearly needs to ramp up, but it’s not so far off the mark they can’t get there in a few months.

I don't think all nurses and doctors are using N95 quality masks. At least from the videos I saw, many of them don't, and simply wearing surgical facemasks.

That is what we have to live with.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#163

Post by zhte415 » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:32 AM UTC

jyrkesh wrote: post #142

nerfhammer wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they're not nearly as expensive each if you buy a box of them. I think it used to cost like $12 for 2 or $16 for 10, speaking in the before-time of course.

Eh, not in the US. I bought a 10 pack of 3M N95s last April in anticipation of forest fires that had screwed up air quality the last two years. They were $40 for the 10, so roughly the price of a latte per day. Fortunately, the fires didn't happen, so I now have 10 masks, but I have absolutely no idea when/how the right time to bring use them is, and I'm doubtful that 10 would make the difference (my local healthy co…

The retail price of a 3M N9501V before the Cov-2 was about 4 Yuan, in mainland China, for a box of 100, plus postage (I used to buy for staff and leave on the front desk for high pollution days) which accounting for CNYUSD at the time was about $70. $40 for 10 sounds high. The current price is an order of magnitude higher (consistent with article material sourcing prices). Pricing seems very demand-elastic, and not only masks, the Just-In-Time supply-chain, regardless of China or anywhere, seems very vulnerable to low-probability (but inevitable, don't like to use the term 'black swan' as it's not, something big happens every decade) large impact events.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#164

Post by tomp » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #135

_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

A much simpler option would to stop seeing the world as “them” and “us” and de-emphasize the borders in general. It would be great if it were illegal to control the flows of inputs to and outputs from manufacturing, but I doubt national leaders hellbent on playing the blame game and prioritizing some lives/prosperity over others simply based on the accident of birthplace would ever give up that sort of control they n…

You saw what happened in the EU. No borders but also no shared decision-making and responsibility. It quickly deteriorated to a situation worse than in the US, with each country doing its own thing (including closing most borders), and very little cooperation and helping each other.

Trump might not be making the best decisions, but at least he's making decisions for the US! Noone is even trying to make decisions for Europe...

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#165

Post by chuckledog » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:34 AM UTC

doodlebugging wrote: post #137

mattkrause wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably want to avoid manipulating the mask a lot, both because it may be contaminated and to avoid punctures.

I agree that the mask could be contaminated. In fact, I would hope that the person wearing the mask has a good reason to wear it, either someone in their household is sick and they are protecting themselves or they are sick and they are protecting everyone else who is home with them. I think it is a bad idea for everyone to wear a mask when there is no threat to their health. With people furloughed home it is likely…

Agreed. The use case I am hoping to help solve for is health care workers (eg. Nursing home aides) who have a very limited supply of N95 masks that they wind up having to re-use for multiple days / weeks at a stretch. If they have access to a quick affective way to sterilize them without ruining them (I like the microwave idea too) then they can stay healthier, and their patients can stay healthier.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#166

Post by arminiusreturns » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

Not all masks are N95 people. It's crazy the amount of grandstanding and virtue signaling going on here. I have had a P100 mask for years with filters in stock, and I am wearing it out on town if I have to.

https://www.coopersafety.com/respirator-types

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#167

Post by zhte415 » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

doodlebugging wrote: post #88

chuckledog wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite is quite a bit of information readily available about sterilizing disposable N95 masks with UV-C light. While not nearly as good as a fresh mask, this might be a preferable alternative to reusing the same mask unsterilized. https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(18)30140-8/pd... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699414/ https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/can-uv-light-disi...…

I believe that microwaving a used mask could also be an effective way to sterilize the mask. (0) I found this information by following links from the CDC website a few weeks ago when I was exploring the possibility of buying masks for my family and found that they were already being hawked online at ridiculous prices. Perhaps steam and/or use of a pressure cooker could also be effective. Many people who do home canni…

Do not steam them. That breaks down the layers in the mask. Certainly do not pressure cook them.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#168

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:40 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #60

koolba wrote: post #4

> China now makes 200 million face masks a day — more than twenty times the amount it made at the start of February. That’s an insane number of masks. Does one in seven Chinese wear a fresh one every day ? Is this gonna be the new normal?

Let's imagine you are a medical professional at a drive-through Corona testing facility, like the ones they just announced will be in Walmart parking lots across the country. You get fully suited up head to toe including N95 mask, googles, etc. You take a sample from ONE person, that person leaves, you now take off every piece of gear and put on a new set. You can sanitize your goggles, but the N95 mask has to be dis…

but the N95 mask has to be disposed of.

In news footage of a drive through testing center, it appears that the nurse was wearing a surgical mask over her N95 respirator, and only discarded that surgical mask in between patients, not the whole N95 respirator.

She discarded her gloves too, they didn't show enough between-patient footage to show if she disposed of the blue (paper?) overcoat she wore over her scrubs between patients too.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#169

Post by hguant » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:43 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #155

echelon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the workers being replaced by automation and having to rely on "gig economy" work could pursue manufacturing instead. We have the workforce. We can pay workers livable wages and give them meaningful work. Cost of goods could be reduced through greater efficiency. Research into robotics and automation could fuel a new decade of American growth.

>We have the workforce. That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support. The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would ta…

This reminds me of a conversation I had at a New Year's party not too long ago - a gentleman I'd never met before and I got to talking, and in the process of getting to know one another (however much you can know someone after 4-5 drinks at a black tie party you go to once a year), he bemoaned the issues he was having trying to open a US branch of his company. Apparently medium scale sheet metal forming operations in the States have all but disappeared - everything is either outsourced to China, or is small scale, high precision work that can't meet demand of more than N hundred pieces a week. It's a boring issue - "oh no, there's no one to subcontract this work to, you have to buy from China for X percent of what it would cost to do here" - but speak volumes as to the loss of a critical component of that manufacturing ecosystem.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#170

Post by doodlebugging » Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 6:44 AM UTC

paulmd wrote: post #157

doodlebugging wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the mask could be contaminated. In fact, I would hope that the person wearing the mask has a good reason to wear it, either someone in their household is sick and they are protecting themselves or they are sick and they are protecting everyone else who is home with them. I think it is a bad idea for everyone to wear a mask when there is no threat to their health. With people furloughed home it is likely…

While I suppose it’s an interesting academic discussion, frankly the idea of being able to safely contain an aerosolized upper respiratory disease at home is ludicrous to begin with, so it doesn’t really matter. The simple truth of the matter is that if you are in a home or apartment with an infected person, and you remain present during their period of high viral shedding, you’re practically certain to contract it a…

I am going to use recent personal experience to disagree with your conclusion that uninfected people in a house with someone who is infected cannot protect themselves and will end up sick.

This past December, in the week before Christmas, my wife had surgery that required an overnight stay. She was released with instructions to avoid laughing, coughing, no physical activity, etc. for several weeks. A couple days after she was home our son came down with an infection that turned into a deep, dry, raspy cough with sudden fever over 102*F. Since she needed to avoid any sort of infection and he was getting worse by the hour I took him to ER where he had a test for flu since people at his school had been down with it in the weeks prior.

The ER doctor told us it was a viral infection but the flu test was negative meaning that we either got there before there was enough viral material for a positive test or that it was something else causing it besides flu.

It became my job to keep his infection from spreading to my wife. To manage that I used sanitation instructions from my sister, a nurse, and I kept him isolated in his bedroom and my wife in our bedroom. I prepared all meals, etc. and cleaned the house, etc. I slept in a spare bedroom in case I was infected. I bought some cheap face masks, not hospital grade, just over-the-ear masks and made sure that she wore one every time she left her room and he wore one every time he left his room. I also wore one every time he left his room. Once he returned to his room I went along behind him and wiped every knob, switch, flat surface, etc that he could've contacted and put his used glasses and utensils in the dishwasher. Then I washed my own hands.

My son's fever broke after 4 days on Motrin and his cough went away too.

My wife never got sick and neither did I. We were all in the same house sharing the same air on days when the heater ran regularly due to a strong cold front.

No one wore a mask all the time. We wore them only when we had the opportunity to have contact with each other.

When the stories started breaking in China about this, I started following it all here on HN. I understood the challenges they would face having just faced similar challenges myself.

I found myself with part of a container of lysol wipes, a few cheap face masks that hadn't been used, some hand sanitizer for each bedroom, and the knowledge that one could beat something like this if they were diligent.

I realize that this is just my story but it is all true. Isolating the infected person, using PPE, sanitizing everything diligently can prevent everyone in the house from being infected if someone in your family does come down with an airborne infection.

My house is cluttered and disinfecting was potentially a chore but I made it easier by following each person along and watching carefully everything that they did while they were out "in public". Once they were isolated, I retraced their steps wiping everything down. I hope you don't have to share my experience but you can rest easier knowing that there is hope.