Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA • Hacker News Board

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#131

Post by larrywright » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #108

larrywright wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted, what you’re posting is accurate. I had a former employee who worked as a software developer at a company that had union electricians. One day he got a new monitor, but it had to sit idle on his desk until an electrician could come and plug it into the wall. He had to occasionally adjust controls that were slotted (potentiometers). He had a little screwdriver that he kept in…

I think these real-life anecdotes of the downside of unions are helpful data points, because they should be addressed if new unions are to form, whether in tech or elsewhere. The important thing to remember though is that bad experiences in of themselves are no reason to write off a category of organization, or to assume no improvement is possible. Where would our industry be if we just assumed riding taxis would alw…

This was a second hand story, but I knew someone years ago who was in a union (factory job). She loved the union, but what I noticed was that there was a hard line between “workers” and “management”, and the relationship was quite adversarial - more than I’ve seen anywhere I worked. During some negotiation thing, she was going to work with a pin on her uniform with her bosses name on it and a line through it.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#132

Post by manfredo » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #127

manfredo wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There still aren't any high profile tech unions. Glitch is 120 people with the highest estimates. Kickstarter is 258 as of March 2020 [1]. These are small companies - medium at best. By comparison there are over a million software developers in the US [2]. And that's just one of many "tech" jobs ("Computer Systems Analyst" has another 600k, "Computer Programmer has 250k). Even if we assume that every employee at thes…

Right, but the fact that there's any movement in the industry at all, stories generating discussions such as this one, groups like the Tech Workers Coalition gaining attention, etc., can mean there's some trend shifting. Unless you think the news is selectively focusing on stories to cover and this is all media manufactured. And when change occurs, whether a social trend, or new product type, or whatever- the pioneer…

> Right, but the fact that there's any movement in the industry at all, stories generating discussions such as this one, groups like the Tech Workers Coalition gaining attention, etc., can mean there's some trend shifting. Unless you think the news is selectively focusing on stories to cover and this is all media manufactured.

Again, don't conflate discussion and attention with actual change. People who produce the news always have to select their topics, so saying that the news is selectively focusing on something is a tautology. The real question is why people are selecting these topics - and you'd have to direct that question to media producers.

The reality is that approval of unions is not outside of historic trends. The last 10 years has seen a marked increase, but that increase started from historic lows. The current approval rating is not abnormally high [1].

> And when change occurs, whether a social trend, or new product type, or whatever- the pioneers tend to be smaller examples rather than high-profile, no?

In the case of unionization no, not at all. Early unionization efforts were not only industry-wide but society-wide (except for the exclusion of blacks and immigrants). Groups like the Knights of Labor and American Federation of Labor sought to organize all American workers. Big changes in society are usually made by big groups. The reality is that the fact that 350 workers unionizing in a field of millions has near zero effect.

1. https://news.gallup.com/poll/241679/labor-union-approval-ste...

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#133

Post by ColonelSanders » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:38 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #124

ColonelSanders wrote: post #123

For a union, it's concerning when some things are more tailored to the whims, edge cases, personal niches of the most vocal, rather than shielding the common denominator of the cooperative from management's business decisions. I'd like to explain what I like, and what I'm concerned about: > Employees at major American tech and game companies have grown increasingly active and outspoken about workplace issues, Very un…

> Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > That's vague, but there are protections against this > Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? Unions can be an additional safety net/layer of protection/tool against these discriminations and abuses. In a time when HR departments are often derided as existing to protect the company instead of workers, and…

> Why? The stigma of culture war and political battles aside, why shouldn't employees take part in making business decisions in general?

Basically, no.

That's what's management is for.

They can become manager's if they want to impact that, though.

Are they qualified to understand what they're talking about? If they have a disagreement, is there a reason why they wouldn't raise it via proper channels rather than effect other things that are vital to the organization?

Are they big picture thinkers that have taken the time to digest the system, uninfluenced by social pressures? Some people don't care about their organization's goals, their coworkers, and decide to act out for their own vanity, at everyone else's expense.

And that is one reason why management exists. To answer your question, while they may be wrong, there's a purpose in shielding decision making away from those who lose sight of the org's goals.

The point of the union is when management makes decisions, which can be unfair and uncaring to the worker, that their rights, safety, and livelihood also are represented with fairness. The alternative I offered to you was, in an organization large enough, they could request to move to a different project.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#134

Post by manfredo » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

BrainInAJar wrote: post #129

manfredo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or game developers can just hire non-union employees. The reality is that game development studios can get away with poor work life balance because there's people who are passionate about making games and are willing to accept poor working conditions to get a chance at their dream job. This Stage Actor's Guild exists, but aspiring actors still have to work second jobs to put a roof over their heads. When a job is a l…

> Or game developers can just hire non-union employees. And then immediately be sued by the union & former employees for retaliation under the labor acts. Businesses already tried that sort of shenanigans

Sued for what? If I form a union with my co-workers and demand $1,000,000 salaries it's illegal for the company to say "nope" and hire someone else?

Management is under no obligation to accept union terms, and is free to hire non-union work if the union terms are not competitive.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#135

Post by einpoklum » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #134

BrainInAJar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or game developers can just hire non-union employees. And then immediately be sued by the union & former employees for retaliation under the labor acts. Businesses already tried that sort of shenanigans

Sued for what? If I form a union with my co-workers and demand $1,000,000 salaries it's illegal for the company to say "nope" and hire someone else? Management is under no obligation to accept union terms, and is free to hire non-union work if the union terms are not competitive.

IANAL (not for US law anyway), but firing someone because of their trying to unionize and hiring someone else is illegal in many world states.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#136

Post by fogetti » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

ColonelSanders wrote: post #133

Apocryphon wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > That's vague, but there are protections against this > Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? Unions can be an additional safety net/layer of protection/tool against these discriminations and abuses. In a time when HR departments are often derided as existing to protect the company instead of workers, and…

> Why? The stigma of culture war and political battles aside, why shouldn't employees take part in making business decisions in general? Basically, no. That's what's management is for. They can become manager's if they want to impact that, though. Are they qualified to understand what they're talking about? If they have a disagreement, is there a reason why they wouldn't raise it via proper channels rather than effec…

Saying that they can become managers is like saying they can become the president of the U.S. The point is that you cannot become a manager at all if you disagree with management in the first place (and that doesn't mean you don't have the chops). Also the number of management seats are limited. The number of union seats has no upper limit.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#137

Post by quest88 » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

NullInvictus wrote: post #41

quest88 wrote: post #2

I wonder why they need a union. Is something currently not working in their favor?

A myth Americans believe is that you only need to form unions when there is an existing problem. That's like wanting medical coverage only after you get sick. You will not have the resources and voice if you wait until a crisis to organize. The employers relationship with unions is only antagonistic because of this waiting until crisis. on a secondary note, there is nothing wrong with living in a democracy and wantin…

Medical coverage argument is a bad strawman.

I don't know when I'm going to get sick, and I can't get rid of the sickness, so I buy insurance to compensate.

I know what I'm getting myself into when signing a contract with a company, because there's a contract. I can leave when I want and seek employment elsewhere.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#138

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:55 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #134

BrainInAJar wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or game developers can just hire non-union employees. And then immediately be sued by the union & former employees for retaliation under the labor acts. Businesses already tried that sort of shenanigans

Sued for what? If I form a union with my co-workers and demand $1,000,000 salaries it's illegal for the company to say "nope" and hire someone else? Management is under no obligation to accept union terms, and is free to hire non-union work if the union terms are not competitive.

Right, that's illegal. Management is under no obligation to accept any particular set of terms, but they're also not allowed to just say "nope"; they're required to continue negotiating with the union until an agreement is reached.

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#139

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

ColonelSanders wrote: post #133

Apocryphon wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already unlawful. They are addressable to the NLRB and civil legal system. > That's vague, but there are protections against this > Wouldn't it be about defining a standard of what a salaried employee is? Unions can be an additional safety net/layer of protection/tool against these discriminations and abuses. In a time when HR departments are often derided as existing to protect the company instead of workers, and…

> Why? The stigma of culture war and political battles aside, why shouldn't employees take part in making business decisions in general? Basically, no. That's what's management is for. They can become manager's if they want to impact that, though. Are they qualified to understand what they're talking about? If they have a disagreement, is there a reason why they wouldn't raise it via proper channels rather than effec…

I've written about this previously [0]. There is no shortage of companies with sound products, good teams, and bad management that prioritizes short-sighted thinking in their business strategy. I've definitely seen organizations with senior and staff engineers much more respected than me call out leadership for ignoring critical technical limitations, or failing to prioritize important things, only to lead to bad business decisions that ultimately doomed their companies. Sometimes those at the top don't see big enough of pictures.

I do believe that there's multiple problems that unions can address, and one of which is giving workers more say in how their companies are run and in what they're building.

Obviously, not all management is made up of pointy-headed bosses, and Dilbert shouldn't necessarily lead the company. There are definitely places where engineering-first cultures fail. But the status quo is made up of organizations where employee disagreement is reduced to a few pointed questions and awkward moments at all-hands, and if management fails then those employees are cut and execs get to leave with plushier severance packages. And while unions' primary purpose should be to protect the lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy, they can potentially be a tool to empower employee decision making. Or at least, to provide a check against management unilaterally making decisions even when the rank-and-file disagree.

Sure, you can just say people can leave, or companies with bad management cultures should deserve to fail. But that just seems like defeatism. It seems like a form of capitalism that promotes throwaway, wasteful behavior. If the employees had valid concerns, but management ignored them, doesn't it seem like a shame for an organization to decline and the product to die because of their mistakes. What about the customers?

Even if unions aren't the best tool for this, an industry that's so obsessed with innovation and disruption and experimentation- coming up with schemes like holacracy for instance- should at least try to address this problem. Bring back board-level ombudsmen, at least. [1]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22381563

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22367243

Re: Glitch employees vote to form union, joining CWA

#140

Post by ColonelSanders » Fri, Mar 13, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

fogetti wrote: post #136

ColonelSanders wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? The stigma of culture war and political battles aside, why shouldn't employees take part in making business decisions in general? Basically, no. That's what's management is for. They can become manager's if they want to impact that, though. Are they qualified to understand what they're talking about? If they have a disagreement, is there a reason why they wouldn't raise it via proper channels rather than effec…

Saying that they can become managers is like saying they can become the president of the U.S. The point is that you cannot become a manager at all if you disagree with management in the first place (and that doesn't mean you don't have the chops). Also the number of management seats are limited. The number of union seats has no upper limit.

> Saying that they can become managers is like saying they can become the president of the U.S.

I don't think that analogy is proportional, since that'd make a manager at a furniture store on par with a head of state. But I get it, there isn't unlimited management roles. Because if there were, everyone would be on their own.

If you want to influence and shape business decisions - you want to be a manager.

How do you become one? By showing competence as an employee and joining a lower management position. Successes are how they climb the ladder. Yes, they definitely can innovate, and they can also play it safe.

People in upper management also hop between companies and have similar positions.