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Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

nytimes.com

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Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#141

Post by robert_foss »

bluGill wrote: post #132
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

I own my home, but I'm not allowed to pour oil on the ground even though it would only destroy my own grass. I own my car, but I'm not allowed to remove the headlights and drive at night. Exactly where we place the limits is up for debate, but I think I conclusively proved to everybody reading this that there need to be limits the only question is where.

I understand what you are saying, but pouring oil into the ground or driving without headlights is against the common interests of most people.

Being able to repair things is very different, it is _in_ the common interest and likely against the interests of the manufacturers.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#142

Post by kmlx »

cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

> shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on

all of these are completely different actions, have different standing in front of the law, have different repercussions etc etc

the way i see these kinds of initiatives: i think they're healthy, i think we need them, but i also notice how they're from a bygone era where cars where fixed in the driveway. that age has passed, and sure, we need a new paradigm. but i still wouldn't trust a random person vs a dedicated service center to fix my phone. can we make those phones so simple that anyone can repair them? would this entail any performance drawbacks?

curios to see where this whole thing leads.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#143

Post by ajayyy »

falcolas wrote: post #113
short_sells_poo wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you lease a car, you do not own it. The bank owns the car and depending on the country of residence, the dealership is possibly on the hook for a guaranteed buyout price. The lessee is certainly not allowed to "tune" the car without the consent of the bank/dealership. They are usually not even allowed to service it anywhere but at an authorized garage. This is different from outright purchase of the car, where y…

> This is different from outright purchase of the car Even this right is being eroded - see Tesla. You can drive it to the scrap yard, but someone else can't always drive it back out.

That's Tesla, which is one of the targets of right to repair

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#144

Post by robert_foss »

econcon wrote: post #125
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

I think if this law is passed, companies will start subscription service where you'll be renting phones instead of owning then. Then onus and exclusive right for repair/replacement will stay with the smartphone company.

Currently there are tons of non-manufacturer repair shops for phones, yet we're not renting phones.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#145

Post by justinclift »

kmlx wrote: post #142
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

> shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on all of these are completely different actions, have different standing in front of the law, have different repercussions etc etc the way i see these kinds of initiatives: i think they're healthy, i think we need them, but i also notice how they're from a bygone era where…

> notice how they're from a bygone era where cars where fixed in the driveway. that age has passed

Do you feel that age has passed because manufacturers now block people having the info needed for repair, or are you meaning the complexity of cars has increased?

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#146

Post by vorpalhex »

bluGill wrote: post #132
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

I own my home, but I'm not allowed to pour oil on the ground even though it would only destroy my own grass. I own my car, but I'm not allowed to remove the headlights and drive at night. Exactly where we place the limits is up for debate, but I think I conclusively proved to everybody reading this that there need to be limits the only question is where.

> I own my car, but I'm not allowed to remove the headlights and drive at night.

The issue there is driving at night on public roads. You can, with your own car, remove your headlights. The car manufacturer can't show up and sue you for that.

> I'm not allowed to pour oil on the ground even though it would only destroy my own grass

That's not the only thing it would destroy (ground water, local wildlife, etc). You are allowed to style your hedges in the shape of a middle finger, or pluck all your grass out blade by blade (save for any HOA restrictions you agreed to).

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#147

Post by rv-de »

Heads up for OnePlus coming ...

Few weeks ago I decided to switch to Lineage OS. For that I bought a used OnePlus 3T on EBay. Now the exceptional fact about OnePlus is that they provide official repair service even for relatively old phones. Most recent model is OP 7T.

https://www.oneplus.com/de/support/repair-pricing/details?co...

Replacement of the battery cost in total 40 Euro. That's shipping back and forth, the battery and the replacement. Very much impressed me how fast that procedure took. altogether only 4 days. How awesome is that?

Works fantastic.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#148

Post by simongray »

TomMarius wrote: post #130
simongray wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's very hard to talk about what "the society" wants People vote for representatives, those representatives enact legislation, and the free press reports on it, causing a feedback effect. Over time we have a picture of what society wants. It's really not that hard. Obviously, there are many different interconnected societies in the world and not all of them have representative democracy or a free press. Ma…

During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (part…

> I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants.

On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament.

In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is now being considered in the EU parliament.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#149

Post by TomMarius »

lm28469 wrote: post #59
TomMarius wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not talking about hardened phones, quite the opposite, a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it - that's the current direction of the market, which I like very much. Who exactly will I hurt with my phone, and when exactly is it going to gain around 1 metric ton and be hurtling down a highway? Since when is it fashionable to justify regulation with completely unrel…

> a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it We have to come to term with the fact that owning such devices isn't good for humanity in the long term. > Who exactly will I hurt with my phone https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-wast...

Eh, no, my country is one of the best of EU in recycling and waste management. I dispose of all waste exactly as I should in a clear, structured and very practical way. (any) phones are taken back for recycling by most sellers, for example.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#150

Post by TomMarius »

simongray wrote: post #148
TomMarius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the last EU parliament elections, 28.4% people voted (in my country of 10 million). These 28.4% have chosen 21 representatives into a parliament of 736, which means 2.85% of all seats. I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. It might be said that the EU was the voice of the nations before they removed the unilateral agreement requirement, but not today. Nobody here (part…

> I think it's clear why this tells us nothing about what the society here wants. On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament. In my own country, 2/3 voted in the latest EU parliament elections. The debates here were dominated by environmental policy, so I'm really not surprised that legislation like this is no…

> On the contrary, it very clearly tells us that your society is apathetic about the EU and does not care about decisions made in the European parliament.

Exactly, that is the only thing that is clear. And the reason is that we have much greater political problems to deal with so the EU is not that relevant to us, especially not issues like right to repair (which is not an issue to anyone I know and google gives me mostly no online discussions in our language). It still does not give anyone the right to shovel us "what the society wants". Our society didn't want the Lisboa agreement, but our politicians signed it anyways - so what exactly does our society want and what exactly should the EU be saying about it?

Even if 100% of people voted, still the 2.85% of voice don't seem like much space to express what our society wants, you know? And why there should only be space for one central opinion? That doesn't seem that diverse.

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