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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#331

Post by anovikov »

pmoriarty wrote: post #67

Little known fact: Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4] In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to tre…

Funny! I can't do acid without some wine, the changed world is too scary then.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#332

Post by lcall »

For what it may be worth, our church also has a very good (edit: free) 12-step program for any addiction (like porn or substances): https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/steps?lang...

I think even just reading it, watching some videos, is worthwhile, but the complete program can be effective.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#333

Post by reflectiv »

NAaddict167 wrote: post #290
iateanapple wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists. In my experience there are two types of atheists who go to AA: those for whom religion “isn’t their thing” and those who are actively hostile to religion. I think the latter group should find an alternative to AA.

So I replied and then deleted my comment. But considering the parent’s reply I’m going to weigh in here. I was actively hostile towards religion. In many ways I still am. I’m still in A.A./N.A. I’m still working the steps. I’ve just got a year clean. Absolutely nowhere in the big book does it say religion is required. In fact, it makes a purposeful effort to try to say the opposite. That is literally the whole point…

Former addict of opiates here, I've attended a lot of AA/NA meetings in the long ago past (8+ years ago).

They may not claim to be religious, but every single step mirrors the idea that you are to give up to a 'higher power' and to 'faithfully' follow the steps...etc...etc.

It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...in reality its a thin veneer for a truly religious/faith based system. It's got religion all up in its business...the claim to irreligiosity is a fig leaf, in my experience.

I also truly hated their angle of making you feel like you are forever a victim/failure to addiction...that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life. In fact it's a good way to make you feel like shit and use again.

What I learned later on is that yes, you can let your past be your past...no I don't want to take opiates...but I also am no longer an 'addict'. I am me, and I don't consume addictive pills anymore.

Also, as an anecdote, over 8 years clean here...and that didn't happen till I gave up on AA/NA.

Edit: After reading a few more messages, this one in particular was on point and stated things better than I can: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22553896

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#334

Post by manifestsilence »

Does anyone else feel like this study is a bit tautological in that it's measuring attributes that are valued by the AA method? Many other methods don't preach abstinence so of course they're going to get less total abstinence duration. But I wonder if there are better ways to measure overall effectiveness and well-being. Some people learn to manage their drink and would fare poorly on that metric.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#335

Post by iateanapple »

krageon wrote: post #299
iateanapple wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Judging from how hostile your response is you are probably in the later category. I’m an atheist and I’ve been going to AA meetings for years in a very religious area and I’ve had no problems at all. If you are in the former category you are welcome and should try a different AA group.

Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault because they did something bad and you have all the reason you need for their "hostile" response. You've been fairly unpleasant about something that was obviously a big thing in their life and that yields you responses like this. Turning that around and (again) blaming them and suggesting their negative response is entirely their fault goes beyond that into the fai…

> Consider that you did suggest it was their own fault

No I didn’t. My original post was for anyone seeking help with substance abuse - that AA is a good option for atheists who are friendly to religion and a bad option for those who are hostile.

If I had wanted to put the parent into the hostile to religion group then I would have said so.

Edit: I also never said anything about being hostile to religious people which is the way the parent decided to interpret it so they could take a swing at me.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#336

Post by iateanapple »

reflectiv wrote: post #333
NAaddict167 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I replied and then deleted my comment. But considering the parent’s reply I’m going to weigh in here. I was actively hostile towards religion. In many ways I still am. I’m still in A.A./N.A. I’m still working the steps. I’ve just got a year clean. Absolutely nowhere in the big book does it say religion is required. In fact, it makes a purposeful effort to try to say the opposite. That is literally the whole point…

Former addict of opiates here, I've attended a lot of AA/NA meetings in the long ago past (8+ years ago). They may not claim to be religious, but every single step mirrors the idea that you are to give up to a 'higher power' and to 'faithfully' follow the steps...etc...etc. It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...in reality its a thin veneer for a truly religious/faith based system. It'…

> It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...

Exactly - it is taking a program that was religious and removing the more openly religious parts in order to try and help people who aren’t religious.

You can smell religion all over it.

> that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life.

With a Christian frame of reference it fits and makes sense - and isn’t framing you as a victim.

For others it can feel very weird and even possibly harmful and build a victim mentality to think of it that way.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#337

Post by noodle_face_ »

throwaway5667 wrote: post #203
Valmar wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ibogaine is amazing at dealing with addiction, considering that it can blow away a serious Heroin addiction after one good trip.

Isn't ibogaine that one drug where you have to go to West Africa to find it due to its being illegal and inaccessible everywhere else and trips last for literal days?

It is available in Brazil, at least in a research capacity. I almost tried it to work on an alcohol addiction but regrettably decided against it at the time.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#338

Post by reflectiv »

iateanapple wrote: post #336
reflectiv wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former addict of opiates here, I've attended a lot of AA/NA meetings in the long ago past (8+ years ago). They may not claim to be religious, but every single step mirrors the idea that you are to give up to a 'higher power' and to 'faithfully' follow the steps...etc...etc. It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise...in reality its a thin veneer for a truly religious/faith based system. It'…

> It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise... Exactly - it is taking a program that was religious and removing the more openly religious parts in order to try and help people who aren’t religious. You can smell religion all over it. > that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life. With a Christian frame of reference it fits and makes sense - and isn’t framing you as a v…

I'd argue its harmful when Christians teach you to feel bad for being human.

This is much the same.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#339

Post by iateanapple »

reflectiv wrote: post #338
iateanapple wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's as religious as it can be while still trying to claim otherwise... Exactly - it is taking a program that was religious and removing the more openly religious parts in order to try and help people who aren’t religious. You can smell religion all over it. > that is not how you promote a prosperous and good outlook on life. With a Christian frame of reference it fits and makes sense - and isn’t framing you as a v…

I'd argue its harmful when Christians teach you to feel bad for being human. This is much the same.

I think that’s fair - and so AA probably doesn’t fit your personality as well as it does others.
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