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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#251

Post by daseiner1 »

golover721 wrote: post #168
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

I have been going to AA for a while now, mostly because it is the only type of group meeting regularly available. The part that I cannot come to grips with is not so much the recognition of a higher power, but the fact that you have to believe that you are "powerless" to your addiction. This whole notion of pushing off fault and that you cannot change your behavior without the higher powers intervention is not someth…

Sure, but I’ve always interpreted it in the sense that you have to surrender to the fact that you are powerless under the influence of alcohol, that you are incapable of doing something that it seems everyone else can (drink)

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#252

Post by addict_throwawa »

formeruser wrote: post #161
addict_throwawa wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my dr mentioned that he's had success with the sub cutaneous thing. it lasts a month and it seems like it's a good way to slowly taper down. and he said the bupe stays in your body for a LONG time when doing that - longer than a month after the 30 day period it's really hard to taper down! it takes a lot of willpower not to just take more since you have it sitting around. i wonder if would be more successful with lik…

I tapered off of my Suboxone prescription gradually over a long period of time. By the end of it, I was taking very tiny pieces of the film. They were small enough that at some point, it was probably more mental than anything. I wish you all the best! After getting off of it, the hardest part for me was still maintaining a clean lifestyle while avoiding the types of people and behaviors that lead to scoring or abusin…

How long of a taper did you do? im not on a very high dose but was still thinking about like 3 months. but I also am 50/50 like I'm worried about the after effects you have - this is working so well now I see very little downside to long term use and the upside is really big imho - except probably harder to eventually taper off the longer I'm on.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#253

Post by fat_cam »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #209
fat_cam wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a current and active member of AA, let me re-affirm that this battle over a "higher power" exists inside the rooms of AA just as everyone is arguing about it here. A great many alcoholics let them selves get hung up on the concept of a higher power, or more specifically, the word "God". The word God appears 134 times in the first 164 pages of the Big Book. For many non religious people as well as non Christian peo…

> That power could be the love of your family, wife/husband, kids, the energy that moves the cosmos, or a fucking Zagnut bar. So, either you actually believe that a Zagnut bar is an agent that can help you out of your desparate situation by using its special powers. Or you are intentionally obfuscating the rather obvious fact that indeed, people do not need to surrender to anything or anyone, because obviously it's n…

The point is, you find a power greater than yourself that you can surrender your will to. That "higher power" is different to everybody. A lot of people let them selves get hung up on the higher power bit because they can't abstract the idea of surrendering to a non quantifiable or tangible thing (hence the Zagnut bar for those who can't surrender to the idea of love or the ideas of forces of nature). Believe me, I was one of those people for a long time. But my suffering got so great that I eventually had to admit to myself that I cannot do it on my own and I need to find something I hold sacred and dear. And if a Zagnut bar is that higher power for you...then so be it. It's better to believe a Zagnut bar could restore me to sanity, then to continue to kill myself with alcohol and drugs.

Again, the point is surrender. I am in no way saying the Zagnut bar is doing anything but inspiring hope in the alcoholic. And you are 100% correct that the work comes from inside, not a candy bar. But without the surrender of self-will, nothing else is possible. Steps 1, 2, 3 are saying I am powerless over alcohol, that I cannot stop on my own, and need to have faith in a higher power of my own understanding to make it through this thing alive.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#254

Post by jtms »

hootbootscoot wrote: post #235
throwaway5667 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't ibogaine that one drug where you have to go to West Africa to find it due to its being illegal and inaccessible everywhere else and trips last for literal days?

tis indeed. as distinguished from iocaine, which is merely inconceivable.

But which cup is it in?

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#255

Post by andai »

dang wrote: post #5
foxyv wrote: post #3

> Keith Humphreys, Ph.D., professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences, and his fellow investigators determined that AA was nearly always found to be more effective than psychotherapy in achieving abstinence. This does not appear to include other programs like pharmacological extinction or the Sinclair method. > We included randomized controlled trials (RCTs), quasi‐RCTs and non‐randomized studies that compared AA…

Ok, I've edited the title to mention psychotherapy, since that's the alternative that the submitted article (at least) focuses on. Which is still an interesting finding. Edit: we've since changed the URL and therefore also the title (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22550789 )

Had to scroll pretty far. The new link is paywalled for me (mobile).

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#256

Post by muzani »

There's a lesser known study in which someone who is optimistic about their behavior performs worse. The people who think they have the most willpower are likely to give in. The more people lose will, the more they view that failure as an anomaly, work harder at it, and spiral worse.

When smokers were asked to smoke the same number of cigarettes every day, and explicitly told not to smoke less, they gradually smoke less.

The people who are pessimistic about their odds often do well. It's likely that AA's approach of making people to feel powerless is what ironically gives them more willpower.

Sources: Howard Rachlin, The Science of Self-Control; Kelly McGonigal, Maximum Willpower.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#257

Post by muzani »

hootbootscoot wrote: post #226
dang wrote: post #190

So far the comments have been about people's prior experiences with the topic (which is great), or prior opinions about the topic (which is ok). But the more interesting story is being overlooked: this is heavy-duty new research that overturns previous conclusions, including the prior expectations of at least one of the lead authors. It would be good to discuss the specifics of the article and the new study.

which might be possible if the article in question didn't come from a paywalled source...

F9 on Firefox to toggle reader view, which removes the paywall.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#258

Post by hoistbypetard »

NAaddict167 wrote: post #229
craftyguy wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists. That's unfortunate, and mostly in line with other experiences I've heard from friends, etc. AA seems like just another bullshit Christian recruitment/retention facility, that sometimes accidentally helps people who buy into it recover from addiction. Too bad.

My current sponsor’s higher power was once an imaginary vagina. It spoke to him and everything. Try and fit that in the Christianity column.

(not who you were replying to...)

> My current sponsor’s higher power was once an imaginary vagina. > It spoke to him and everything.

That made me laugh audibly, and next time I need to refer to a higher power in any sort of conversation, I fully plan to work that in.

If you ever have the occasion to tell your sponsor that this story inspired such a reaction from a random person on the internet, I hope it amuses him.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#260

Post by burnJS »

AA is great. It saved my Dad's life. For a while, I was going too. Ultimately I began drinking again and things are much better now. I also know that if things ever get rough for me I can rely on AA. Really great group of non-judgmental people in there. As an agnostic, the "God" stuff wasn't a problem for me, it's pretty light and on your own terms.
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