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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#41

Post by jlangemeier »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

The problem with invoking that part of the solution that helps is the surrender to a higher power, is that there isn't a lot of group therapy solutions that don't have that involved.

We can't effectively say for certain whether there's a correlation with throwing in a higher power or just group therapy on its own in this circumstance, and I know for a fact there are many that will not join an "* Anonymous" group because of the more religious overtones. This creates a dichotomy that is hard to separate when talking about groups like AA, as it reinforces the thought that their process is important over the comradarie and support of a shared experience.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#42

Post by metabagel »

snurfer wrote: post #10
Supermancho wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that doesn't mean it is a successful program Chronic Alcoholics had limbs (hands) cut off during early history. It wasn't very successful comparatively or maybe it wasn't "the best". The best known behavioral solution is the best behavioral solution qualitatively (which is a mix of programs, statistically). But calling such a program (as AA) something non-successful means you've using different criterion than the b…

The silent majority of sober people are those who quit drinking using self-help. Those people don't talk about their program.

My own impression is that AA would not have worked for me. Too preachy. Too pessimistic. For me, what helped was psychotherapy, joining a meditation group, an antidepressant, and solving the underlying root cause of my drinking (a failing relationship). I haven’t had an alcoholic drink in 4 years, and I don’t miss it.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#43

Post by beefok »

saberience wrote: post #20
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :)

When you contrast it to any other type of 'militant', there is typically violence involved..

However, personally, I think the closest thing I could believe in is a "best self". Not that anyone chooses their beliefs, but the rest would be pretty hard to digest for any good reasons.

Honestly, I just think giving up on the idea that you can do this by yourself (in the long term) is counter-productive. Especially if you have an existential crisis later in life and that 'higher power' was the only thing that kept you moving forward. Learning how to embrace self-respect/love/understanding/esteem would go so much further in the long run and would help in all aspects of your life. With each success, and learning to accept each failure -- you will be strengthening productive habits.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#44

Post by mullingitover »

Trying to find sources to confirm this, but I've repeatedly heard that cognitive behavioral therapy dominated AA in effectiveness. I would take this more as an indictment of psychotherapy than an endorsement of AA.

Edit: I found a review of Project MATCH[1].

> Background

> Project MATCH was the largest and most expensive alcoholism treatment trial ever conducted. The results were disappointing. There were essentially no patient-treatment matches, and three very different treatments produced nearly identical outcomes. These results were interpreted post hoc as evidence that all three treatments were quite effective. We re-analyzed the data in order to estimate effectiveness in relation to quantity of treatment.

>Results

> The results suggest that current psychosocial treatments for alcoholism are not particularly effective. Untreated alcoholics in clinical trials show significant improvement. Most of the improvement which is interpreted as treatment effect is not due to treatment. Part of the remainder appears to be due to selection effects.

[1] https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1...

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#45

Post by sfkdjf9j3j »

snurfer wrote: post #40
billjings wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really take issue with this characterization. Please have some respect and humility: addiction is a serious matter, and this characterization of addicts as weak-willed and immoral is inaccurate and misleading for anyone out there who is seeking a way out.

Who said anything about "addicts"? I was talking about drunks.

Modern medicine treats alcohol abuse and addiction as similar to other chemical dependencies.

I don't know what to tell you. Your callous dismissal of the seriousness of alcohol dependency is an ideological position, not one based on reason or science.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#46

Post by crdrost »

agumonkey wrote: post #21
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

> Anecdotally, I've known someone who used to be stressed out and controlling. Last time I saw him he was not so stressed. He said his life changed once he surrendered and accepted his destiny. He didn't go religious or anything, just 'accepted' his fate. That's something I think about slightly. A lot of adult life is anxiety based on seeking optimal something. After years it feels like fear of death causing over ana…

Yeah, I mean, this is a core Christian belief. Hitchens even described it as objectively immoral. :) Jesus tells us that we don't really know the future so it's kind of pointless to be planning to hard, speculating and being anxious over it. You might just have a heart attack tomorrow: so much for your plans. Jesus says instead to trust that God takes care of the birds so surely he will take care of you too, his Beloved children—to just trust that if you try to bring Order to this world’s Chaos and be authentically There, then everything will turn out OK.

My uncle Guus plays viola in an orchestra and once noted to me that there is something similar that happens in attitudes towards other people who are dissatisfied with us. When we are young we ask “what is wrong with me, how can I change myself?” and as we grow older we start to ask instead “What's wrong with them?” but without trying to change anybody. They will find their way—or not; and we may be able to help them—or not.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#47

Post by snurfer »

tanseydavid wrote: post #27
snurfer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The silent majority of sober people are those who quit drinking using self-help. Those people don't talk about their program.

Do you have a link or citation for that? Is this just your impression that you are relating?

No citation, but consider this: before the creation of AA (1930-something), are we to believe no one ever stopped drinking successfully?

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#48

Post by metabagel »

snurfer wrote: post #22
billjings wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works for a lot of people. For many people, particularly the worst cases, it does not. Most people who end up in AA have tried self-help already.

For people who lack willpower and who suffer the continual moral failing of their dependency on alcohol, AA is an option.

I don’t consider alcoholism to be a moral failing. It’s more of a life hurdle. In general, the benefits of alcohol are overrated, and the drawbacks are underrated in our popular culture. Alcohol consumption increases anxiety and depression. This doesn’t get enough attention.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#49

Post by metabagel »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #38

Last I google-researched, AA-style treatment was really the ONLY effective treatment against long term dependence/addiction. Psychotherapy and others almost always failed. It probably is related to the social network effect that was described with Vietnam vets dumping heroin addiction when they returned home to their old social groups that didn't accomodate the behavior. AA et al provide a new social group that activ…

For those who AA doesn’t work for, I would recommend psychotherapy, joining a meditation group (for the social benefit, not for counseling), and practicing regular meditation, particularly loving-kindness meditation, which you can google and is easy to practice. A good psychotherapist can help you learn how to talk to yourself in a more supportive way. Meditation can help you to break out of your mental ruts and pause before taking habitual action.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#50

Post by snurfer »

sfkdjf9j3j wrote: post #45
snurfer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about "addicts"? I was talking about drunks.

Modern medicine treats alcohol abuse and addiction as similar to other chemical dependencies. I don't know what to tell you. Your callous dismissal of the seriousness of alcohol dependency is an ideological position, not one based on reason or science.

Excuse me, but I offer a rational alternative to the religion of Alcoholics Anonymous. Would you say AA is the bastion of reason and science?
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