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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#341

Post by asveikau »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #306
asveikau wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet I feel like "power grab" is a loaded description that implies such a "grab" is unjustified and that the grabber is primarily interested in power for power's sake, not for otherwise justifiable, altruistic, or benevolent reasons.

Because it is a bad thing regardless who does it. If the supposed good guys were actually as good as they thought they were, they would simply aim to do whatever jobs need doing with as much integrity as they posess. They wouldn't be grabbing power, for any reason. There is no "enlightened" reason to grab power. If you don't like how someone else runs something, it's not your only option to try to take it over from t…

It's weird for open source because the ousted party can usually take the tree and fork. A prominent example of this is OpenBSD, which started with Theo being ousted from NetBSD. In many ways that fork is now more influential than the original.

My initial reaction was to compare your sentiment to nation states and consider it in its extreme to be a justification for despotic behavior, though your comment tries to rule that out. After further consideration I think the OpenBSD example is more illustrative and a more constructive reply. Outside of licensing wars which sometimes happen, there is not always a need to be the "original" fork.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#342

Post by catalogia »

asveikau wrote: post #341
Brian_K_White wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a bad thing regardless who does it. If the supposed good guys were actually as good as they thought they were, they would simply aim to do whatever jobs need doing with as much integrity as they posess. They wouldn't be grabbing power, for any reason. There is no "enlightened" reason to grab power. If you don't like how someone else runs something, it's not your only option to try to take it over from t…

It's weird for open source because the ousted party can usually take the tree and fork. A prominent example of this is OpenBSD, which started with Theo being ousted from NetBSD. In many ways that fork is now more influential than the original. My initial reaction was to compare your sentiment to nation states and consider it in its extreme to be a justification for despotic behavior, though your comment tries to rule…

> My initial reaction was to compare your sentiment to nation states and consider it in its extreme to be a justification for despotic behavior

I think maybe part of the problem across the board is a tendency to use analogous thinking to 'raise the stakes' of relatively minor matters by comparing them to very serious matters. It's important to keep ourselves grounded and remember that we're discussing programs, not pogroms.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#343

Post by joe_the_user »

tomc1985 wrote: post #278
cosmiccatnap wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you said that at work how well would it go you think...

I don't know where you work but at most--if not all--of my jobs this sort of internal discussion can be somewhat common when things get heated. We hurl epithets about outsiders when we get frustrated, and sometimes speak strongly not unlike what ESR said. Would that kind of language/dialog be tolerated if it was directed at other people present or on the team? Or towards stakeholders? Of course not. Of course, our di…

Would that kind of language/dialog be tolerated if it was directed at other people present or on the team? Or towards stakeholders? Of course not.

The ESR comment clearly directed at an OSI "person present" who also was a stakeholder, FYI.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#344

Post by zozbot234 »

davidgerard wrote: post #331

The correct axis to consider this question along is "hostile work environment". Because coding is a job, and open source coding is a job these days. And you are expected to behave in a somewhat professional manner. ESR's email in any reasonable workplace would lead to a disciplinary hearing. It was a bad email that should not have been sent.

An open source maintainer is not your boss. If your work on an open source project is not being accepted, you can just fork the project and effortlessly escape any "hostility", while still taking full credit for your coding. The proposed Persona Non Grata clause actively creates a full-blown "hostile work environment" problem where none existed before (by purposely obstructing the "freedom to fork" aspect of FLOSS development), so if you're right it's Ehmke who is doing what you describe, not ESR.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#345

Post by catalogia »

cosmiccatnap wrote: post #178
aeturnum wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think communities have the right to decide on what kind of engagement they want. ESR could be acting within the community standards of OSI, in which case I don't think he should be banned. I also find the way he engages to be more hostile than I'm comfortable with and probably wouldn't want to work an environment where it was the norm.

If you said that at work you would be fired, because nobody can have a civilized conversation with you and no progress can be made. Nobody is stopping him from expressing himself in his personal life but if you are going to bring your crap to work expect there to be consequences.

Some people would be fired if they wore a tshirt to work. I don't think whether or not a behavior would be tolerated by corporations should be the measure by which we judge appropriateness in any context other than a corporate workplace.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#346

Post by zozbot234 »

asveikau wrote: post #341
Brian_K_White wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is a bad thing regardless who does it. If the supposed good guys were actually as good as they thought they were, they would simply aim to do whatever jobs need doing with as much integrity as they posess. They wouldn't be grabbing power, for any reason. There is no "enlightened" reason to grab power. If you don't like how someone else runs something, it's not your only option to try to take it over from t…

It's weird for open source because the ousted party can usually take the tree and fork. A prominent example of this is OpenBSD, which started with Theo being ousted from NetBSD. In many ways that fork is now more influential than the original. My initial reaction was to compare your sentiment to nation states and consider it in its extreme to be a justification for despotic behavior, though your comment tries to rule…

> It's weird for open source because the ousted party can usually take the tree and fork

Ah, but they can't do this freely and effortlessly if they've been labeled as Persona Non Grata in the license by the previous maintainer. (See, it's genius! This is such a great idea, I can't possibly tell what might go wrong with it. "Programs, not pogroms" indeed.)

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#347

Post by ofrzeta »

chx wrote: post #46

> They have already had an alarming degree of success at this through the institution of "Codes of Conduct" on many projects. This has led to the expulsion of productive contributors for un-PCness; it's not just a problem in theory. Talk to me. Seriously, you can not talk about this topic without talking to me because you are talking about me anyways. (And no, ESR never reached out to me.) I have been, by any measure…

It's quite interesting to read the last paragraph on that page that lists your offenses.

"We are now looking forward to Linus Torvalds to be shown the door from the Linux project. He has long steered it abusively and has even been identified on mass media publications as a verbally insulting jerk. Him being a white male, the epitome of exclusivity, is just the cherry on top."

That sure sounds like someone on a mission (also caring a lot about other people's business).

Also (as someone occasionally working with Drupal 8) I found it interesting that commenting on the routing/menu system was one of the reasons that got you kicked out. Although I could not find any of the alleged "comments ... aimed at" Larry Garfield. On a side note this was obviously before Garfield himself was removed from the Drupal community about a year later due to violation of the code of conduct.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#348

Post by johnny22 »

Shivetya wrote: post #206
nrclark wrote: post #59

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well. Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all. I don't know what the right solution is. ESR and RMS…

All that is left is removing their names from code and projects they contributed so they do not exist. Don't that some won't try this and worse many will cheer it on. of course once that bridge is crossed they can attribute the work to someone currently approved of and more deserving

that is illegal and will never happen.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#349

Post by joana035 »

tedivm wrote: post #61
seilrse wrote: post #9

I'm just going to leave this here. https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bru... More sources: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

You don't even need rationalwiki, wikipedia itself has some choice comments- > In 2015 Raymond accused the Ada Initiative and other women in tech groups of attempting to entrap male open source leaders and accuse them of rape, saying "Try to avoid even being alone, ever, because there is a chance that a 'women in tech' advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp." > Raymond has claimed that "Gays experimente…

What about context?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#350

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

Let them have it. All. Wait until they fall. Because bikeshedding Gerrit is not fit for merit. Bitrotten incest is their best. Fork in silent stealth, away from the screaming masses. Enjoy the silence, and clear air. No obnoxious gases anymore, just code and score. While THEY have nothing to show, except screaming fits. Dumb shits!
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