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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#171

Post by josteink »

TheOperator wrote: post #119
sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

I don't see any reason you can't have an open source project which enforces a strong code of conduct, creates a "safe space" for members sensitive to various things, which doesn't tolerate rudeness, jerks, bullies, etc. Or one with a "show me the code, stick and stones" ethos. I also don't think that has to be every open source project. Put another way Tumblr and 4chan can exist on the same internet and we can compla…

> Which comes off as mutinous.

More like infiltration.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#172

Post by ectospheno »

sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

A truth stated passionately doesn't become false. A falsehood stated calmly doesn't become true. Appeal to emotion is always a logical fallacy.

Beware those whose sole argument is "you are a bully".

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#173

Post by DuskStar »

ForHackernews wrote: post #160
kazinator wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What it would look like: an army of docile microserfs beavering away for free to make FOSS work better for Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Oracle, IBM, ... and the odd government who wants a crypto backdoor or two.

This is a weird rejoinder to make in a thread about ESR, who was one of the loudest voices arguing for corporate-friendly language ("open-source" not "free software") and licenses (permissive, not copyleft).

And yet, if that's what it took to drive corporate adoption of open source software, it was almost certainly worth it...

Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches? Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#174

Post by derefr »

root_axis wrote: post #162
derefr wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes; my point was that there's certain societal expectations "out in the environment" that cause groups to do dumb things; and the way to fix the problem created by that is to change the societal expectations.

Society is very diverse, it's not that realistic to change society such that you stamp out the ideas you disagree with, it's much more feasible and effective to use the power you have within your own community to stand up to ideas you disagree with.

I mean, the whole point of the Abilene paradox is that it's something that happens when everyone's level of regret they'd have from doing the thing doesn't exceed their level of regret from social approbation if it turns out everyone else did want to do the thing and they had to be the one to argue against it. So in the end everyone loses a little utility—rather than everyone expecting to lose a lot of utility (in the form of personal social capital), and then actually losing nothing-at-all when it turns out nobody's on the other side of the argument.

If you want to stand up for a lack of decorum in your community, there's nothing stopping you; but the behavioral economics just don't work out in favor of anyone following after your example, and do in fact work out in favor of the rest of the group tearing down the presumed-social-more-violator to protect themselves from being associated with you. (Again, even in cases where everyone turns out to secretly agree with you!)

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#175

Post by zozbot234 »

catalogia wrote: post #137
TheOperator wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any reason you can't have an open source project which enforces a strong code of conduct, creates a "safe space" for members sensitive to various things, which doesn't tolerate rudeness, jerks, bullies, etc. Or one with a "show me the code, stick and stones" ethos. I also don't think that has to be every open source project. Put another way Tumblr and 4chan can exist on the same internet and we can compla…

> "Code of conducts" inherently drive power away from the contributors to some sort of moderator enforcing the CoC. Could we have both? e.g. CoC moderators elected by contributors from the ranks of contributors?

Debian does that (indirectly, as in the DPL is elected and the buck stops with them), and people still complain and disagree about CoC-related decisions.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#176

Post by ogre_codes »

aeturnum wrote: post #99
josteink wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> banishing contributors for wrongthink And now he is banished. Are you really arguing against this?

I think communities have the right to decide on what kind of engagement they want. ESR could be acting within the community standards of OSI, in which case I don't think he should be banned. I also find the way he engages to be more hostile than I'm comfortable with and probably wouldn't want to work an environment where it was the norm.

ESR was OFF the lists for 20 years prior to posting this message. Seems like he's out-of-touch with what the community standards are.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#177

Post by cgh »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #93
downerending wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a reference to one of the people pushing very hard on spreading CoCs everywhere. Can't recall the name. (Corin?) Reading some of that person's tweets, though, left me with a very bad impression. Anyway, search and form your own opinion.

Any idea who that may be?

https://wiki.opensource.org/bin/Main/OSI+Board+of+Directors/...

He is referring to one of the people running for the board of directors whose major goal is to introduce Codes of Conduct into open source projects.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#178

Post by cosmiccatnap »

aeturnum wrote: post #99
josteink wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> banishing contributors for wrongthink And now he is banished. Are you really arguing against this?

I think communities have the right to decide on what kind of engagement they want. ESR could be acting within the community standards of OSI, in which case I don't think he should be banned. I also find the way he engages to be more hostile than I'm comfortable with and probably wouldn't want to work an environment where it was the norm.

If you said that at work you would be fired, because nobody can have a civilized conversation with you and no progress can be made. Nobody is stopping him from expressing himself in his personal life but if you are going to bring your crap to work expect there to be consequences.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#180

Post by cosmiccatnap »

tomc1985 wrote: post #90
joe_the_user wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Below email is the quoted statement: ts originator is a toxic loonytoon who believes "show me the code" > meritocracy is at best outmoded and in general a sinister supremacist > plot by straight white cisgender males." I think open source has a serious problem in the sense that there are a lot of projects headed by single, rather abusive and obsessed individuals. And moreover, where a stream of obscenities in an emai…

His statements seem more like the words of a man who feels strongly and passionately about his cause. It's a little suprising that the OSI keeps such high standards for decorum if that was the message that got him banned. It deserves a warning, maybe, but banning him? Cancel culture indeed.

If you said that at work how well would it go you think...
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