Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain • Hacker News Board

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#221

Post by cies » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #184

cies wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afaik there is no top athlete on keto when performing: they are all on high-carb. Keto is the "burn your body fat" mode. Staying in keto by eating high fat low carb is a trick. Humans never had such easy access to fats as today. Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates.

> Before we made settlements we got a large part of our calories from fruits (which contain short carbs), not unlike the other primates. This can't possibly be true. Agriculture is only 12,000 years old or so, but people have been living in Europe for much longer than that. I'm in North America, and there are no fruits available locally for six months out of the year. Before agriculture people must have been living m…

You think a large share of pre-settlement humans lived in non-(sub)tropical regions? I don't think so. We mostly staying in the warmth, and the few daredevils that left had a hard time.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#222

Post by com2kid » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #207

LanceH wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So anecdote extrapolated to everyone and anyone who disagrees is just imagining it. Not being hungry until meal time? Placebo effect caused me to not want a nap in the afternoon? Did I imagine the 60 pounds weight loss, too?

> " Placebo effect caused me to not want a nap in the afternoon? " No, it was probably the adrenaline being pumped due to the caloric deficit — without which you wouldn't have lost weight — or at the very least your diet being eucaloric, because eating too much does make one sleepy ;-) > " Not being hungry until meal time? " This can be attributed to — (1) extra proteins compared with your regular diet and (2) eating…

> eating foods that aren't highly palatable.

The keto community has recently learned how to make good meals, it was pretty bad for awhile, but I'd like to note that nearly all Indian curry dishes are keto friendly.

And while ymmv, I consider them rather palatable.

Lots of Chinese dishes as well, obv. not noodle and rice dishes, but a large swath of Chinese cuisine is perfectly keto friendly.

Heck my local ramen shop now offers keto friendly noodles.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#223

Post by lubonay » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

wirrbel wrote: post #141

dhimes wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an N of one, I present my situation: Since mid-January this year I have been fasting intemittently. I have zero calories before 5PM, and I am usually in bed by 10. I exercise most weeks between 4 and six days, but only two or so are "vigorous" for me. My workouts are mid-day. When I eat, I eat normally for me, which is lower carb and higher protein, but not (knowingly) keto or anything. I have lost about 10 pounds…

when was your last test before the one you had?

That's a very reasonable question - for all we know, the numbers might have been even worse!

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#224

Post by Jach » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:48 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #149

throwaway_tech wrote: post #17

The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain. "Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result i…

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I…

Your body is composed of many hierarchical control systems. Some of them have feedback loops that imply minimum adaptation times longer than days. For a dietary related one (keto), one such adaptation is liver efficiency to produce fewer ketones + kidney efficiency to filter out uric acid. People who never have had gout but go on a keto diet sometimes get gout flareups because of a uric acid spike from the diet change, and it takes a number of weeks for uric acid levels to subside: https://www.virtahealth.com/blog/keto-adapted

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#225

Post by Zelphyr » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

jaybeeayyy wrote: post #20

Not sure if I believe all the hype about these wild benefits low carb/keto diets have but I will say I've felt so much better on it...I rarely feel tired anymore and have been weirdly healthy the last 2 years. My doctor was surprised with my blood tests and weight loss when she heard what I eat lol. I'd never go back to the amount of carbs I was eating.

Same for me. I caught my first cold a few weeks ago but I was at a funeral (the stress of the death I'm sure reduced my immune system) hugging a bunch of people I hadn't seen in years so it's no surprise that I did. The thing is, several times over the past two years since starting Keto I felt a cold coming on but the next day it was gone. It's the weirdest thing. So weird that I have trouble attributing it all to Keto but I don't know what else other than Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (which I started at the same time as Keto) to attribute it to. I do know that exercise does help improve immunity but I ran a lot before starting Keto and BJJ and still caught colds.

My doctor was also surprised at my results. At first he was skeptical about what I was eating until he looked at my numbers. The shock on his face visible. Then he said, "These look so good that I guess you should keep doing what you're doing."

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#226

Post by Munky-Necan » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:53 PM UTC

I think the prevailing theory will eventually be that a diet rich in monosaccharides is detrimental to health. It's been demonstrated that low carb, high meat diets are not the optimal diet, in that most adults will eat red meat or some type of processed meat and little fiber. Both add to the numerator when looking at myocardial infarction, stroke, and colorectal cancer. When one is in kidney failure it is recommended by the American Society of Nephrologists to attenuate protein derived from animal products.

Essentially, balance is what the current recommendations say, but also to stay completely away from sugar.

All my sources shamelessly stolen from Uptodate:

> U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and U.S. Department of Agriculture. 2015 – 2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans. 8th Edition. December 2015. Available at http://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/

>Carbohydrate quality and human health: a series of systematic reviews and meta-analyses. Reynolds A, Mann J, Cummings J, Winter N, Mete E, Te Morenga. Lancet.

>Changes in diet and lifestyle and long-term weight gain in women and men. Mozaffarian D, Hao T, Rimm EB, Willett WC, Hu FB. N Engl J Med.

>Meta-analysis of the association between whole grain intake and coronary heart disease risk. Tang G, Wang D, Long J, Yang F, Si L. Am J Cardiol. 2015;115(5):625. Epub 2014 Dec 18.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#227

Post by bad_user » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:55 PM UTC

runjake wrote: post #208

bad_user wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I…

You're spending a lot of time in here making accusations of myths and placebos, but none of your counters offer any form of citation. You'd make much stronger points if you included citations. If your points are in fact correct, they would be highly useful.

The problem is a claim like the body/brain, the cells themselves needing to adapt to a new fuel source before seeing some benefits, taking months before you get there, actually contradicts the body's physiology. I don't really need to provide any citations, because the onus is on the one making those claims. And even if I provide citations, the goal posts will simply be moved, with lines like — the study was not long enough, the diet was not low carb enough, etc, etc.

It also takes a lot of effort to dispel bullshit, much more effort than spreading it. Engaging with flat earthers is exhausting, most people don't do it due to insufficient knowledge and actual scientists don't engage b/c they've got better things to do.

My language is emotionally charged because I've been in the keto community for a long time and I've witnessed a lot of quackery, which I believe can do harm to those in need, just like the anti-vaxers are doing.

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There are very few studies showing the effects of a ketogenic diet on cognition, in healthy subjects.

Here's a study showing that a low-fat diet can have better psychological improvement, versus a low carb diet, even with similar weight loss: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/articl...

Here's a study that finds similar effects in mood between a low carb and a high carb diet, although the reaction time was improved in the low-fat group: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/86/3/580/4649430

Here's a study comparing cognitive performance between a high carb versus a log carb diet, showing similar results: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3789132/

Here's one study which merely says that people feel awful for the first two weeks and then start to feel less awful after reintroducing carbs — it's unfortunately not randomized: https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/23706/PDF

Here's a study that shows weight loss itself (the biggest confounder of every claim made by keto proponents) is known to affect mood and cognition and to improve quality of life: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4905696/

Here's one paper arguing that most effects of drugs are attributable to placebo or nocebo: https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...

People on a diet also tend to do some exercise, here's one arguing about the positive effects of resistance training, which many in the keto community are engaging in: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/article-abst...

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Weight loss, exercise and placebo are actually the best explanations for most of the seemingly miraculous effects of the keto diet.

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Anyway, here's one for the depletion of glycogen: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/254/5031/573.long

Here's a graph showing roughly the evolution of glycogen and ketones during fasting, from "Harper's Biochemistry": https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-Q0MSPXUAEK_-r?format=jpg&name=...

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#228

Post by teilo » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

throwaway_tech wrote: post #206

teilo wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that ketosis is more than low carb, but Gluconeogensis has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is a lot of wrong information out there about GNG. GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. GNG provides enough glucose for the tissues that cannot run on ketones (such as the kidneys). Without GNG, ketosis would not…

>GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. I never said GNG kicks people out of ketosis, I said protein to fat ratios will prohibit ketosis. Yes, in ketosis your body continues to produce minimal amounts of glucose, I never said anything to the contrary. However, GNG has a lot to do with ketosis vis-a-vis protein to fat ratio…

> If you over consume fat or carbs, they get stored as fat in fat cells. What happens when you over consume protein? Protein can not be stored as fat, it must first be converted to glucose, which the body will try to burn before it is stored in fat cells.

No, this is wrong. GNG is capped in the body, i.e., strictly regulated. It does not increase based upon protein intake beyond that cap. Excess protein is neither converted to glucose, nor excreted. It is utilized in protein synthesis and increases lean body mass.

This has been demonstrated in a number of studies. For example, in Bray GA, JAMA 2012, subjects were fed an excess of 1000kcal over their their maintenance calorie needs for 8 weeks. There were three groups: low, moderate, and high protein. Carbs were constant. Fat made up the difference in caloric content, such that the high-protein group (230g a day) received the lowest fat intake. All three groups gained similar amounts of fat over those 8 weeks, with the high protein group gaining slightly less fat. But the medium and high-protein groups gained lean body mass to make up the difference.

So in short, excess protein is not converted to fat via GNG, but is used for protein synthesis, and increases lean body mass.

> This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet.

This absolutely does not happen, and I have the blood tests to prove it.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#229

Post by crazygringo » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #149

throwaway_tech wrote: post #17

The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain. "Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result i…

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I…

Your last paragraph is just unbelievably flat-out wrong. Maybe you didn't suffer from keto flu, but it can last for a couple weeks to a couple months (my case) and has zero to do with dehydration.

You're literally retraining your body to efficiently burn stored body fat when it never had to much before. This takes time. The idea that it happens in days is laughable, as is the idea that your microbiome adjusts that quickly.

Please don't spread blatant misinformation.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#230

Post by runjake » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #227

runjake wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spending a lot of time in here making accusations of myths and placebos, but none of your counters offer any form of citation. You'd make much stronger points if you included citations. If your points are in fact correct, they would be highly useful.

The problem is a claim like the body/brain, the cells themselves needing to adapt to a new fuel source before seeing some benefits, taking months before you get there, actually contradicts the body's physiology. I don't really need to provide any citations, because the onus is on the one making those claims. And even if I provide citations, the goal posts will simply be moved, with lines like — the study was not long…

Thanks, this is an excellent response. This is super informative.

I do understand your goal post comment. It's super-frustrating that virtually all diet information out there has some tangential agenda (Eg. animal welfare, keto/paleo cultism, etc)