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Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

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Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#201

Post by alberth »

ethanbond wrote: post #19
tryptophan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they saw a link between HIGH carbs in blood over long periods of time associated with dem\alz. Eating normal ammounts of carbs isn't going to kill you, it's literally our main energy source.

The issue that people, at least Americans, run into is that consuming a “normal amount of carbs” is shockingly hard if you’re not consciously trying to avoid them. Foods that don’t really need sugar in them often have it in huge amounts because it delivers more flavor oomph (and separately delivers a dopamine hit). This is especially true in the aftermath of the war on fat because, shocker, fat tastes really good and…

Totally agree this is the issue.

Most people don't realize that a plain bagel (55g) has more carbs that a slice of pie (43g).

https://www.eatthis.com/foods-high-in-carbs/

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#202

Post by bad_user »

ctoscano wrote: post #194
bad_user wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I…

> most people are in ketosis before eating breakfast in the morning, because the liver's glycogen is partially depleted overnight, enough for the liver to produce significant ketones. And nothing will make you enter ketosis faster like skipping a meal or two There are two claims here that are pretty important and contrary to my understanding and experience: 1) Liver is depleted after usual sleep 2) Fasting is the fas…

> Even when practicing a very low carb diet your liver is "topped up" through gluconeogenesis while you are sleeping.

Not really, gluconeogenesis is a pretty inefficient pathway, from my reading on the subject you can't make more than 200 calories of glucose per day via gluconeogenesis, which is pretty low and definitely not enough to replenish the glycogen stores, only enough to keep them from being completely depleted. I'm struggling to find the reference. But you can also ask most doctors — if you give urine or blood in the morning, nobody raises an eyebrow when seeing ketone readings because it's a known effect.

Also note that I'm not saying that all glycogen is depleted. Glycogen stores are never depleted, as the glucose sparing effect eventually kicks in (aka physiological insulin resistance) and yes, some of it is replenished via gluconeogenesis.

---

> by ketosis you mean the body is producing enough ketones to power itself

No, ketosis is a metabolic state in which the liver is producing ketones in response to a short supply of glucose, with significant ketones being detectable in the blood or urine. That's it. And availability of ketones in the blood stream is enough for them to be used.

There is a threshold of 0.5 mmol/L of ketones that people in the keto community use, but it's completely arbitrary — nobody knows why that threshold isn't 0.3 mmol/L. Regardless, I'm at 0.5 mmol/L in the morning while eating between 150 and 200 grams of carbs per day.

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> "You don't need to starve yourself, you just need to put your body in a scenario where the energy demands overtake the available energy in the form of blood glucose (and strain the stores in the muscle and liver)."

We agree here — yes, once the glycogen stores are depleted enough, the liver starts producing ketones and of course exercise can do the trick.

There is one caveat ... during exercise ketone usage also goes up, and exercise also drives your blood sugar up, so if you measure the ketones immediately after exercise, the readings can be misleading.

But yes, active people can burn through their glycogen stores really fast.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#203

Post by wigl »

togs wrote: post #86

I’m confused because I thought the brain liked sugars: “The bold implication of this idea is that the effects of ego depletion could be undone by ingesting glucose, and Baumeister and his colleagues have confirmed this hypothesis in several experiments.” Kahneman, D. “Thinking, Fast and Slow”. 2011. pg. 43, para. 2, Se. 5.

Ego depletion was one of the key losers of the replication crisis in psych. Book was published right before the peak of the crisis. Basically it's impossible because the body can't even digest the glucose in time for the purported effect. Baumeister is also a hack who refuses to let go of the idea while others have moved on.

changelog: key example -> key losers

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#204

Post by toomuchtodo »

the_gastropod wrote: post #93
toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthy diets (low carb, moderate fat/protein/fiber) don't generate outsized profits for the agriculture and processed food industry.

This kind of conspiratorial thinking blows my mind. The claim is: big ag, with all their grain production, wants Americans to eat lots of grains, and corrupts government agencies to recommend such diets. The real healthy diets include lots of “protein” (meat), but “they don’t want you to know”... What’s incredibly absurd about this is: where do you think the vast majority of the farmed grain goes? Feeding the cows, c…

It's not a conspiracy per se. I don't think Big Ag and the government got into a room together and said, "we're going to kill everyone over time with a Western diet leading to obesity, type 2 diabetes, and eventually death". It's more simple than that: greed of industry and regulatory failure on the part of government. Mexico has one of the highest rates of Coca Cola consumption, it's even fed to babies instead of formula. You know why it can't be stopped? Multinational power and greed, with trade weaponized against countries who attempt to counter these multinationals [1]. In country, instead of trade, it's campaign contributions to representatives that keep more substantial regulation at bay.

But you simply cannot argue that Western diets aren't causing epidemic levels of obesity and civilization disease [2], and that food producers and government aren't contributing to it.

Sidenote: Was "they don’t want you to know” a Kevin Trudeau reference? If so, I get that reference!

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/nov/03/obese-soda-suga...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6817492/

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#205

Post by lhl »

hoka-one-one wrote: post #148

Is it too much to ask that anyone promoting low-carb based on personal experience post bloodwork? I think it's pretty clear no one on here is well-versed in nutrition as we're all programmers, so maybe it'd be good to have some intellectual integrity. I'm interested in prolactin, thyroid, liver, cholesterol, CO2.

I've gone through several thousand papers the past year or two so I feel like I'm more well-versed in nutrition than most nutritionists/dieticians at this point, certainly in my understanding the recent clinical/research literature. I rarely post any nutritional/health related statements without citations to peer-reviewed work (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=lhl )

I think most people don't publish labs because they view it as personal, but I did a write-up last year, which includes (IMO) basically all my relevant markers: https://randomfoo.net/2019/09/17/1-year-personal-health-inte...

A very strange set of lab markers you're interested in btw - prolactin has very little clinical value for men (and is almost never tested), but I tested my testosterone at the one year mark (it's fine, 772ng/dL, I have not sequential tests). I had a thyroid panel last year as well and TSH, FT3, and FT4 were all in range. My CO2 has stayed the same regardless of diet - I don't know why that would be relevant at all.

For people looking to track their metabolic health, the bloodwork I think is most useful to track over time: CMP, CBC w/ diff, basic lipid panel (fasted 12h), A1c, fasting insulin, Vitamin D, hsCRP. I also was getting a full iron panel, and it was interesting to see my ferritin remained elevated last year (but is within range now - likely a marker of resolving MetS).

The thing that almost no one gets measured that is almost criminal IMO is fasting insulin - while it's highly mobile, it's also dirt cheap ($8 more than FBG+A1c direct-to-consumer price), allows calculating the best IR indices, and is a 10-15y leading indicator for chronic metabolic disease.

At home, waist circumference to height ratio (WHtR, WSR) is the best simple marker for tracking metabolic health.

Ashwell, Margaret, and Sigrid Gibson. “Waist-to-Height Ratio as an Indicator of ‘Early Health Risk’: Simpler and More Predictive than Using a ‘Matrix’ Based on BMI and Waist Circumference.” BMJ Open 6, no. 3 (March 14, 2016). https://doi.org/10.1136/bmjopen-2015-010159.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#206

Post by throwaway_tech »

teilo wrote: post #165
throwaway_tech wrote: post #17

The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain. "Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result i…

It is true that ketosis is more than low carb, but Gluconeogensis has absolutely nothing to do with it. There is a lot of wrong information out there about GNG. GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose. GNG provides enough glucose for the tissues that cannot run on ketones (such as the kidneys). Without GNG, ketosis would not…

>GNG is an on-demand production of glucose, and absolutely does NOT kick the body out of ketosis, or cause the brain to run on glucose.

I never said GNG kicks people out of ketosis, I said protein to fat ratios will prohibit ketosis. Yes, in ketosis your body continues to produce minimal amounts of glucose, I never said anything to the contrary.

However, GNG has a lot to do with ketosis vis-a-vis protein to fat ratios, protein to fat intake can not be to high or it will kick you out of ketosis because of GNG

>Furthermore, GNG runs at mostly a constant level, does not increase with protein intake, and is at that constant level even when the body is not in ketosis.

If you over consume fat or carbs, they get stored as fat in fat cells. What happens when you over consume protein? Protein can not be stored as fat, it must first be converted to glucose, which the body will try to burn before it is stored in fat cells. This is why a high protein to fat ratio carnivore diet will prohibit ketosis or kick one out of ketosis, unlike a high fat to protein carnivore diet (again I never said the body stops producing glucose from protein in that situation, but the glucose production is minimal in ketosis because of the ratios and ketones remain the primary fuel source).

>To overcome insulin resistance it takes a strict low-carb regime paired with moderate fat intake, and lowering of stress.

While generally true and correct, I can even come up with examples where this breaks down...whey oxalate being a perfect example. Whey oxalate will typically have 25g of protein and may have as low as 1 gram of carbs, but Whey oxalate will spike insulin in most people and throw most people out of ketosis.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#207

Post by bad_user »

LanceH wrote: post #185
bad_user wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I…

So anecdote extrapolated to everyone and anyone who disagrees is just imagining it. Not being hungry until meal time? Placebo effect caused me to not want a nap in the afternoon? Did I imagine the 60 pounds weight loss, too?

> "Placebo effect caused me to not want a nap in the afternoon?"

No, it was probably the adrenaline being pumped due to the caloric deficit — without which you wouldn't have lost weight — or at the very least your diet being eucaloric, because eating too much does make one sleepy ;-)

> "Not being hungry until meal time?"

This can be attributed to — (1) extra proteins compared with your regular diet and (2) eating foods that aren't highly palatable. (speaking of which, high carb diets made of whole plants also have the advantage of fiber and volume)

There is a lot of evidence in the scientific community for these claims, while there is none for any specific effects of the keto diet. This isn't about anecdotes, although keto proponents sure seem to have a lot of them.

---

> "Did I imagine the 60 pounds weight loss, too?"

Good for you, I lost 55 pounds too (not on keto), I know how challenging losing fat can be. And I'm genuinely glad to see other people succeeding.

If you feel good, keep doing whatever it is you're doing. If not, then know there are plenty of other options.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#208

Post by runjake »

bad_user wrote: post #149
throwaway_tech wrote: post #17

The title is terrible, it should read ketosis/ketones may prevent, reverse age-related effects within the brain. "Low carb" as the title currently reads does not necessarily result in ketosis and your body/brain running on ketones, which appears to be the scope of this study. There is more to dietary ketosis than low carb, just as an example carnivore or paleo diets are low carb, but those will generally not result i…

> If you have never entered ketosis and experienced your brain running on ketones, I would suggest you experiment for yourself. I would say a minimum 2-3 months which should be enough time for your microbiome to change and your body/brain to adapt primarily running on ketones. I've been on Keto for about 8 months (before giving up), measuring my blood ketones and being in deep ketosis between meals (over 2 mmol/L). I…

You're spending a lot of time in here making accusations of myths and placebos, but none of your counters offer any form of citation.

You'd make much stronger points if you included citations. If your points are in fact correct, they would be highly useful.

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#209

Post by pawelduda »

wtetzner wrote: post #186
pawelduda wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The difference was noticeable and as soon as I started eating carbs again, my strength increased in a matter of day or two.

How long were you in ketosis before you stared eating carbs again?

Between 2 and 3 months

Re: Study: Low Carb Diet May Prevent, Reverse Age-Related Effects Within the Brain

#210

Post by thenayr »

bad_user wrote: post #191
sizzle wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you give up? How we your energy levels? Did you drop weight easily?

I gave up because I felt awful ... problems sleeping, strong heart palpitations, hair falling off, left foot going numb, etc... all symptoms of nutrient deficiencies, which I couldn't correct via food or with supplements and that started disappearing within a week after giving up. And that entire time I did not lose weight, I actually gained a pound or two. If you're interested in losing weight, find a strategy for e…

Based on your description, it sounds like you ignored most of the popular advice in regards to electrolytes. Heart palpitations, numbness, sleep issues. These all point to electrolyte imbalances. Were you doing any type of "ketoaide" supplementation? What was your salt intake like?

EDIT: I made a post in this thread about my experience with keto (now 2+ years). You can find it here - https://medium.com/@iamnayr/2-5-months-on-the-ketogenic-diet...

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