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Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

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Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#291

Post by yxhuvud »

rlv-dan wrote: post #75
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

I pay more often with cash today than some years ago, as a statement. Interestingly, if you talk about cash in Sweden the comments you will get tend to be very hostile. It's like talking about meat in a vegan community.

The only time I use cash, is when I take the yearly trip to Germany. Apart from that, it never happens. So yes, I'd get irritated if someone gave me cash because it is a hassle to use.

Though I must say Germany too is changing fast - 7 years ago most places didn't take cards, now most places do. And I've even heard of cash-less bars popping up in Berlin. So the change is coming there too, only a bit later.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#292

Post by yxhuvud »

ACS_Solver wrote: post #105
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

I've lived in Sweden for nearly 10 years, and the whole cashless aspect is really something I've embraced. Cashless payments dominated even 10 years ago, but I've also seen a massive change in the past 2-3 years with places no longer accepting cash. Grocery shops still do, but most restaurants, takeout places and cafes are cashless. On the contrary, I find myself irritated in Germany where cash is required. The main…

You probably don't need company cards anyhow, as you can probably tie your normal cash card to the company.

And if they can track it for the people that want that, they can track you.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#293

Post by AdmiralGinge »

dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

The UK is really weird in this regard, things like ID cards were massively rejected as far too authoritarian but we also have a government that wanted to bring in an insane internet restrictions. I think it comes of not having had a revolution in our recent history, much of Europe has the Nazis or Soviets in living memory to inoculate against trusting the government too much, our last experiment with overthrowing the government was Cromwell in the 17th century and he imposed a regime so austere and repressive we reverted back to a monarchy (albeit a constitutional one) and have stayed that way since.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#294

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

ACS_Solver wrote: post #183
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main thing I want to see is stronger privacy laws regarding transactions. There's some hope here with the EU. There is some hope here ... that there will be new rules to ignore? Like, how do you think such rules could ever be enforced effectively and in a way that the public can actually trust that it is being enforced effectively (to avoid chilling effects)? Plus, how do such rules prevent data leaks due to se…

You build good systems with a combination of technical and legal measures, of course. Ban sharing of purchase data (legal measure) and also build systems to the data is encrypted with your on-card key (technical measure). It's no different from any other system. Violators need to be punished accordingly, but that's a broader failure in tech, that fines for abuse are very small. Of course legal restrictions don't work…

> You build good systems with a combination of technical and legal measures, of course.

How is that "of course"? Not excluding one or the other a priori is one thing, but why would it be the obviously right choice to always use a combination of both?

> Ban sharing of purchase data (legal measure) and also build systems to the data is encrypted with your on-card key (technical measure).

How would that "encrypting with your on-card key" thing work?

> Of course legal restrictions don't work well without technical measures, but anything privacy-related is a social problem first and foremost, so it needs legal solutions in addition to the technical ones.

How does it follow that when you have a social problem, you need a legal solution? That seems like a complete non-sequitur to me.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#295

Post by Loughla »

jotm wrote: post #261
Hitton wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you navigate without Maps, Uber, etc.? Do your friends know you won't reply to texts? It's crazy how everyday reality from 20 years ago is now seen as unimaginable as hermitic living.

It's extremely convenient. I can't stress this enough. I remember navigating some cities in the country I grew up in with paper maps, hand drawn directions and lots of asking other people. It was more frustrating than it was fun. Then came unlimited Internet and online maps I could print out. Then ubiquitous fast Internet, and smartphones with GPS and compasses! Built-in maps that will lead you straight where you nee…

That's exactly it. The technology is a burden in my life, with connectivity expected 24 hours a day. Except for travel.

We are more likely to just point our motorcycles in a random direction and figure out where we're going later now that we have GPS in our pockets. It's like an absolute safety net for adventure!

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#296

Post by fauigerzigerk »

pimterry wrote: post #276
2rsf wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> explain why I don't use Vipps please explain. direct bank transfers are still slow (same bank) to unacceptable (different banks) for most payments

In general, within the EU, this is rapidly improving. > still slow (same bank) SEPA instant credit transfer is standardized since 2017 and supported by > 50% of banks & payment providers ( https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta... ). If both parties support that then bank transfers take under 10 seconds. If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 busi…

>If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 business day max.

Right, but one business day will often be two days during the week and four days over the weekend, because many banks set an arbitrary cut-off time after which they will no longer process any payments.

One bank I use will process payments received after 12:00 pm (lunchtime) on the next day. So the money will arrive two days later, unless it's a Friday, in which case the money arrives on Tuesday.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#297

Post by pmontra »

wil421 wrote: post #262
smichel17 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

The Euro coins can be lost easier than a paper dollar. I’d hate having to carry a change pouch in the first place. I have about $600+ in a big coin jar with a bunch of paper dollars thrown in. I’ll buy an iPad or a vacation once it reaches the top.

I'm sure about that but I wonder how many coins I lost since the Euro. Not many. Probably all of them went into malfunctioning vending machines.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#298

Post by mandelbrotwurst »

mrep wrote: post #289
robert_foss wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

Ending up with useless coins is also super prevalent in the states because tax isn't included in list price and everyone prices things as $X.99 so you always end up with useless change. Super annoying and I wish they would change the law to force list prices to be the final price all things included (no hidden fees either).

That law would have the drawback of making tax increases invisible.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#299

Post by xorcist »

jotm wrote: post #259
ACS_Solver wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in Sweden for nearly 10 years, and the whole cashless aspect is really something I've embraced. Cashless payments dominated even 10 years ago, but I've also seen a massive change in the past 2-3 years with places no longer accepting cash. Grocery shops still do, but most restaurants, takeout places and cafes are cashless. On the contrary, I find myself irritated in Germany where cash is required. The main…

> places no longer accepting cash Is that legal? I believe in most countries national currency most be accepted in any form, by law...

Payments in national currency can be completely electronic of course.

When cash is made sufficiently less used in society, and there are strong interests in this direction, cash is regarded as some sort of paper gift card for real money.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#300

Post by MperorM »

As a student who recently spent their savings on a Macbook 16 inch, just to have it stolen shortly after I really would have preferred selling it for cash would not have been an option for the thiefs.

in the same manner, I gladly would have accepted mass surveillance if it meant the thief would actually get caught.

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