Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#351

Post by duxut_staglatz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

jaked89 wrote: post #319

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A contract isn't law. I can write a piece of paper saying that you agree to work for me for $1 per hour and even if you sign it, you are still able to take legal action against me because this contract is illegal. Preventing megacorps from exploiting those with few options is obviously a net benefit.

This has nothing to do with my point. Law exists to establish peace and consensus. Contacts are the most basic construct enabling modern life in a crowded society. Reinterpreting contracts in a liberal, unreasonable manner destroys peace and introduces chaos. It prevents members of society from ever trusting one another, and makes all agreements tentative, subjective to the retroactive whims of politicians and court.…

While it is possible to argue against it on a philosophical ground, in French law contracts are not the most basic construct, and they have to comply with higher legal norms such as law or the constitution. Hence a contact must be "reinterpreted" (i.e. is void) if it does not follow the law.

> On ne peut déroger, par des conventions particulières, aux lois qui intéressent l'ordre public et les bonnes moeurs.

> Le contrat ne peut déroger à l'ordre public ni par ses stipulations, ni par son but, que ce dernier ait été connu ou non par toutes les parties.

> Chacun est libre de contracter ou de ne pas contracter, de choisir son cocontractant et de déterminer le contenu et la forme du contrat dans les limites fixées par la loi.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#352

Post by duxut_staglatz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:45 PM UTC

WanderPanda wrote: post #170

BitwiseFool wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hunch this is actually being done to hurt Uber drivers and save the already well-regulated Cab industry in France.

Probably also an act of protectionism / hurting foreign companies

Are you implying that French courts change their rulings to benefit the government policies (hurting foreign companies in this case) rather than simply basing them on the law?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#353

Post by Larrikin » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

mstade wrote: post #221

d1zzy wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When does that happen? Almost every Uber/Lyft driver I've seen lately has both logos on their car...

This might depend on jurisdiction though. I too have seen cars with all kinds of stickers at the same time in some countries, and in others they are exclusively one or the other.

Whenever I've asked why a driver is only driving for one its usually for one of two reasons.

They don't know they can do both and went with what they believed to be the most popular. These are usually uber only drivers.

They had a bad experience with too many customers on one platform. These are usually Lyft drivers that are actually using the platform for the occasional side money instead of a full on job.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#354

Post by username90 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

Can anyone explain why we need separate laws for self employed people and employees? To me it seems like they should have the same criteria. So for example, if a self employed person don't bring in enough money to pay minimum wage and all benefits then he is no longer allowed to work and must file for unemployment and look for another job immediately so that he can get a better paying job. Then Uber would no longer be able to get any riders unless they paid better which would fix the problem. What is the problem with this model?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#355

Post by manigandham » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:47 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #259

hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people want to work for Uber so badly then whats Uber's place not to accommodate them? If single mothers need help so badly then thats not Uber's problem, they're out to run a business not save the world. The government should do something useful for them instead of effectively putting them out of work. Yes the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people…

> the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people we're supposedly so concerned about will be able to work anymore due to qualifications or being able to cope. This kind of whining and fear mongering is done in response to absolutely every kind of employment regulation or workers rights improvement. Somehow it never seems to come true.

It's come true many times and is already happening in California because of AB5.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#356

Post by bsaul » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:48 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #93

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

In France, there are 3 conditions that make you an employee: - pay - work - subordination The first two are relatively straightforward: you get paid to do work. They are important in order to distinguish between volunteers and employees. Obviously, Uber drivers are working for money, it matches. The last part is the most important. It means that the employer has power over the employee, as in: give orders, and punish…

Subordination is extremely weird, because one could argue this is also the basis of a customer / supplyer relationship. « Customer is the king » as they say. Once you’ve agreed in a deal, then your customer will give you « orders » ( in compliance with your contract, of course), and make decision to stop the deal if the contract allows him to, and he’s not satisfied.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#357

Post by manigandham » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:48 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #256

hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people want to work for Uber so badly then whats Uber's place not to accommodate them? If single mothers need help so badly then thats not Uber's problem, they're out to run a business not save the world. The government should do something useful for them instead of effectively putting them out of work. Yes the main effect of this is the company will have to restrict its standards and probably less of these people…

There are plenty of Uber competitors out there. There model of employment isn’t the only one possible. We can do better, and we should try. On the basis of your arguments business should make no attempt to care for any of their workers, and all worker protections should be abolished. That model only works if you buy into the fantasy that employees have any real negotiating power, they don’t. The only negotiating powe…

You're not protecting the worker. You're taking away their freedom and choice and turning them into a different kind of worker.

Perhaps if you speak to some drivers, you'll find the overwhelming response that shows they want flexibility, not another full-time job.

These kind of laws do not take a majority to pass, and France had violent protests and riots by taxi drivers against ride-sharing with plenty of political infighting. The only votes that matter are Uber drivers, and you would find a very different conclusion if you only asked them.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#358

Post by Jommi » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:50 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #301

d1zzy wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When does that happen? Almost every Uber/Lyft driver I've seen lately has both logos on their car...

Why do the drivers usually have two different phones?

Ease-of-use, and iPhones don't have multi-use.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#359

Post by Jommi » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

julianozen wrote: post #230

alistairSH wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

I'd add to this that both Uber/Lyft try and hide the price from you before you accept and penalize you for declining/canceling too many ride

Not true with Uber. It depends on the jurisdiction/market. The way it works in California is not how it works country- or worldwide.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#360

Post by duxut_staglatz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #357

avianlyric wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of Uber competitors out there. There model of employment isn’t the only one possible. We can do better, and we should try. On the basis of your arguments business should make no attempt to care for any of their workers, and all worker protections should be abolished. That model only works if you buy into the fantasy that employees have any real negotiating power, they don’t. The only negotiating powe…

You're not protecting the worker. You're taking away their freedom and choice and turning them into a different kind of worker. Perhaps if you speak to some drivers, you'll find the overwhelming response that shows they want flexibility, not another full-time job. These kind of laws do not take a majority to pass, and France had violent protests and riots by taxi drivers against ride-sharing with plenty of political…

There is nothing that prevents Uber from providing flexibility. The court has not ruled that Uber contracts were illegal, but that they were employment contracts (obviously, with the flexible hours Uber is known for) rather than (Uber) company to (the driver's) company business contracts.