Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#281

Post by lapinot » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

> I publish an ad on a handyman site asking for a new shed built for £100

A valid interpretation, which would be consistent with the court's decision, would be that you are the employer, the builder is you employee.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#282

Post by smcphile » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:42 PM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #140

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

>> If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore.

This is not the case in France. Self-employed people still pay personal income tax and/or a tax on company profits.

The increased taxes on employees as compared to the self-employed is mainly due to paying for the infrastructure and cost of providing extra benefits to employees, like unemployment insurance, vacation pay, better pensions, etc. The term for these taxes are “charges sociales”, meaning they’re used for providing social services. The increased taxes are not used for building roads, paying for the armed forces, or things like that. Other taxes pay for that.

If everyone in France were self-employed, a very few government services providing social services (like Pole Emploi) might cease to exist, but most government services would be entirely unaffected.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#283

Post by duxut_staglatz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

c3534l wrote: post #260

Counterpoint (from the basis of what I know from how the US, not France, classifies independent contractors): 1. Uber drivers also drive for Lyft and other services 2. They can reject a passenger when the call comes in 3. They bring their own tools to the job (their car) 4. They provide their own training and technical qualifications (they're responsible for getting a drivers license, license plate, etc.) 5. They set…

Do they work with limited supervision? The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The monitoring is automatic instead of having a boss peering over your shoulder.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#284

Post by rtkwe » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:47 PM UTC

jaked89 wrote: post #279

Examining this case from a "similarity to employee" perspective neglects a crucial factor: the expectations between the parties at the time of contract. It's patently obvious no Uber driver expected to be treated as an employee, as no employment contract was signed, and the Uber model is known and clear. The court merely implements "social justice", which is nor social nither justice, destroying basic trust in societ…

Most employment law isn't about protecting people from being surprised by an employer it's about setting limits to what an employer can require of an employee. Both parties expecting at signing that you'll only get paid for half the hours you work or that you'll be paid below the required minimums doesn't make it any more legal for the business to do that.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#285

Post by alwayseasy » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #271

alwayseasy wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The French court doesn't buy your interpretation of "There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.", the mere existence of a vetting system and a rating system show Uber expected drivers to come back. The profession of driver isn't new and wasn't invented by Uber. Uber just found a way around local labour (and tax) laws and a European government, who's getting the downside of the tech company but…

What of ratings or vetting forces someone to work more? If you sell once at a fleamarket and acquire a word-of-mouth reputation for your actions, are you forced/expected to come again? It's irrelevant why a government would act, political or fiscal reasons are always part of it, and protectionism. This doesn't have bearing on whether it is making sense or being illogical.

Vetting and ratings are about establishing longer term relationships and not just one trip using the app. It's only illogical in a vacuum and not based on how Uber behaved on the French market.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#286

Post by Polylactic_acid » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

jaked89 wrote: post #279

Examining this case from a "similarity to employee" perspective neglects a crucial factor: the expectations between the parties at the time of contract. It's patently obvious no Uber driver expected to be treated as an employee, as no employment contract was signed, and the Uber model is known and clear. The court merely implements "social justice", which is nor social nither justice, destroying basic trust in societ…

A contract isn't law. I can write a piece of paper saying that you agree to work for me for $1 per hour and even if you sign it, you are still able to take legal action against me because this contract is illegal. Preventing megacorps from exploiting those with few options is obviously a net benefit.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#287

Post by xorcist » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:49 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

That parable is stretched a bit too thin.

If that handyman site of yours set the price for the new shed, and also paid the workers who came to build the shed, it would be perfectly rational to call that site a "construction company".

There's some tradition to it as well. This varies a lot between countries, but in many places taxi drivers have historically been self employed all the way back to horse carriages. So there's that, too.

Should you pay your Uber driver directly, or should you negotiate the fare with them, the situation would be altogether different.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#288

Post by duxut_staglatz » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #14

So can Uber force French drivers to work certain hours? As an American, I have poor understanding of what employment entails in the EU. If the Uber drivers are just hourly employees, what changes for them? In the USA, you only see real employment benefits if you are a salaried employee. An hourly worker gets paid their wage and that's it (no sick days, retirement, etc).

They cannot force French drivers to work certain hours (under their current contracts), but this is not relevant to their work status:

> The fact that the driver is not obliged to connect to the platform and that this absence of connection, irrespective of its duration, does not expose the driver to any penalty, are not taken into consideration when characterising the relationship of subordination.

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#289

Post by AnthonyMouse » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #102

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

> That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride.

That is price negotiation. The market price changes all the time in response to supply and demand. If you're not willing to do it for a lower price and someone else is, you lose business to them. An hour later there is more demand and you can get some business at your price. Or you can lower your price (accept both rides) and get business both times.

Narrowing the choice to "accept or reject" isn't really removing the price negotiation, it's just simplifying it down to what it inherently always was to begin with.

> Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility.

They get to choose what kind of car to drive, where to buy gas, what hours to work. What would you say is the equivalent thing they don't get to choose?

> Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to leverage any power differential to self-benefit, it seems reasonable that regulations be interpreted in the most protective (of the party with less power) manner possible.

But what does that even mean in this case? Isn't the party with less power the one that would be out of work if reclassified as an employee, because employees have less flexibility etc. than contractors?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#290

Post by darkwizard42 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

The driver does however set their own hours, can go online and offline at choosing, can reject or choose a ride if they wish, and can freely choose the method by which they fulfill a ride (there is no set route a driver must take).

Not sure this is as clear as it seems.