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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

221–230 of 602 posts

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#221
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do general contractors in your example punish plumbers if they are found to be working for multiple general contractors?

When does that happen? Almost every Uber/Lyft driver I've seen lately has both logos on their car...

This might depend on jurisdiction though. I too have seen cars with all kinds of stickers at the same time in some countries, and in others they are exclusively one or the other.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#222
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

On the other hand, what criteria would you say classify someone as an employee?

Your shed builder example seems like it could apply to almost any kind of job. By that logic, absolutely no one would be an employee.

Or put differently, what would stop me from firing all my employees and contracting them as freelancers instead?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#223
post #206
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is employee and 1099 the same? Because almost every 1099 contractor is restricted in the ways listed. For example, I was doing work for a Digital Marketing company as a software developer. I could not: 1. Take their clients 2. I had to accept their rate or just decide to not work with them 3. I accepted their terms and conditions for jobs allocated to me from them #2 and #3 seem to be more of an issue of negotiating…

> If I drive for Uber, Lyft, and whoever else wants my services, am I not building my clientele? I seriously doubt you, as a driver for Uber or Lyft, could legally make deals to drive people you find via your work for those companies, outside being assigned with the apps for those companies. Anyone know what the contract with Uber/Lyft says?

I came here to ask that very question. The only thing I could find on Uber's website is this:

> Requesting a specific driver

> The Uber app cannot match you with a specific driver.

> When you request a ride, your app sends your request to nearby drivers to pick you up at your pickup location.

https://help.uber.com/riders/article/requesting-a-specific-d...

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#224
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In addition to what others have said, this is not the full truth

> Its drivers are allowed to deny a ride, and can see the cost upfront.

Drivers can't deny too many rides (as a self-employed person can), or they are penalized by Uber.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#225
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

What you should be comparing this to is HomeAdvisor. I use them for handyman services and the handyman told me he must contact customers through a proxy phone number and they don't give him any ability to negotiate pay or terms. Yet somehow he is a contractor.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#226
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Aren't you removed from the platform if you reject too many rides?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having more than one job doesn't mean I'm necessarily self employed. I could work at a supermarket during the mornings, and a cornershop in the evenings, and still be an employee in both cases.

But you cannot simultaneously work for both.

I'd say the only way to "simultaneously" work for both is to have a rider from more than one service in the car at the same time. Probably 0% chance they'd have an overlapping route, so you'd have to go off-route for one of them, and I'm sure that wouldn't go well. But for all the drivers I've seen that use more than one service to find riders, never seen this happen.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#228
post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

The (press release of the) judgement does not address a key counter argument: a large majority of drivers work for several platforms simultaneously. Even if that particular driver did not, he obviously had that possibility: the switching cost are negligible for a driver. Source/disclaimer: used to work for a direct Uber competitor in France.

Having multiple jobs doesn't indicate self-employment autonomy, neither does it remove the overriding conditions the person is subject to with each employer (in this case: building own clientele, setting rates and other key terms of providing transportation service).

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#229
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they've ever had radios in though, doesn't seem likely that they also take dispatches.

You don't need a radio now because of cell phones...

I said they never had radios in the past. These aren't radio taxes. They pick people up from the side of the road. That's most taxies in my experience.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#230
post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

I'd add to this that both Uber/Lyft try and hide the price from you before you accept and penalize you for declining/canceling too many ride
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