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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#311

Post by e40 »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #223
e40 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I drive for Uber, Lyft, and whoever else wants my services, am I not building my clientele? I seriously doubt you, as a driver for Uber or Lyft, could legally make deals to drive people you find via your work for those companies, outside being assigned with the apps for those companies. Anyone know what the contract with Uber/Lyft says?

I came here to ask that very question. The only thing I could find on Uber's website is this: > Requesting a specific driver > The Uber app cannot match you with a specific driver. > When you request a ride, your app sends your request to nearby drivers to pick you up at your pickup location. https://help.uber.com/riders/article/requesting-a-specific-d...

The issue isn't requesting a specific driver, the issue is a driver making a deal outside the app with passengers.

I seriously doubt drivers are allowed to make side deals with passengers.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#312

Post by valzam »

ijidak wrote: post #185
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Is employee and 1099 the same? Because almost every 1099 contractor is restricted in the ways listed. For example, I was doing work for a Digital Marketing company as a software developer. I could not: 1. Take their clients 2. I had to accept their rate or just decide to not work with them 3. I accepted their terms and conditions for jobs allocated to me from them #2 and #3 seem to be more of an issue of negotiating…

I mean before we had uber your exact case was often debated for the same reasons: Should agencies not have to employ you if you are solely dependent on them?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#314

Post by def8cefe »

felipelemos wrote: post #264
def8cefe wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we cannot expect that the law in your country is the only law exists. I doubt federal law covers taxi regulations in any country, it's generally local by-law or equivalent. The regulations are going to be different in Paris than they are in Lyon.

In Brazil the federal law L12468 [1] regulates the taxi driver profession. The federal law L8078 [2], known as the Consumer Protection Code, protects (as the name says) the consumer in any transaction, be it products or services. The section 39 subsection 9 states that: "Art. 39. É vedado ao fornecedor de produtos ou serviços, dentre outras práticas abusivas: [...] IX - recusar a venda de bens ou a prestação de servi…

I find it amusing that in the course of chiding me for allegedly assuming laws are the same in all countries you assumed I'm American (I'm not).

I'm a taxi driver speaking generally about the differences in our job vs. Uber drivers. I will now step back and let the software developers argue about things they know nothing about.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#315

Post by Jommi »

iamaelephant wrote: post #250
hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #201

With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask fo…

> With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask…

What below minimum wage rates? In most of Uber's markets the price is based on supple and demand, and the drivers get a portion of that price. It's a market driven scheme where you agree to driving at that price. If you don't agree, then just change platforms, or don't drive!

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#316

Post by duxut_staglatz »

dahfizz wrote: post #308
duxut_staglatz wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They cannot force French drivers to work certain hours (under their current contracts), but this is not relevant to their work status: > The fact that the driver is not obliged to connect to the platform and that this absence of connection, irrespective of its duration, does not expose the driver to any penalty, are not taken into consideration when characterising the relationship of subordination. > The criteria for…

I think we are talking about different things. Now that subordination has been established, using the criteria you list, what's stopping Uber from forcing the drivers to work regular shifts? The drivers are legally subordinate to Uber now, after all.

Indeed, now they can (but do not have to) require regular shifts.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#317

Post by Jommi »

coliveira wrote: post #151

Kudos for the French. If a driver works full time driving for Uber she should be compensated as a full time worker.

If a contractor just happens to work for you at some point of time for 8 hours per day, are they suddenly an employee?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#318

Post by Jommi »

WanderPanda wrote: post #170
BitwiseFool wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hunch this is actually being done to hurt Uber drivers and save the already well-regulated Cab industry in France.

Probably also an act of protectionism / hurting foreign companies

Yep, you can already see it with the internet tax they are proposing. Well, European competitors like Bolt will prevail.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#319

Post by jaked89 »

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #286
jaked89 wrote: post #279

Examining this case from a "similarity to employee" perspective neglects a crucial factor: the expectations between the parties at the time of contract. It's patently obvious no Uber driver expected to be treated as an employee, as no employment contract was signed, and the Uber model is known and clear. The court merely implements "social justice", which is nor social nither justice, destroying basic trust in societ…

A contract isn't law. I can write a piece of paper saying that you agree to work for me for $1 per hour and even if you sign it, you are still able to take legal action against me because this contract is illegal. Preventing megacorps from exploiting those with few options is obviously a net benefit.

This has nothing to do with my point. Law exists to establish peace and consensus.

Contacts are the most basic construct enabling modern life in a crowded society. Reinterpreting contracts in a liberal, unreasonable manner destroys peace and introduces chaos.

It prevents members of society from ever trusting one another, and makes all agreements tentative, subjective to the retroactive whims of politicians and court.

It serves the court, positioning it as an ultimate dictator, not the society.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#320

Post by AnthonyMouse »

nicoburns wrote: post #309
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Target pays workers hourly wages. It would be quite something if they allowed you to work at Walmart during the hours you're being paid an hourly wage by Target.

Well one can't simultaneously drive a passenger obtained via Uber, and a passenger obtained via Lyft either.

Neither can a contractor build a gazebo for one client at the same time as they're building a gazebo for a different client. But there is a difference between getting paid for hours and getting paid for tasks.
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