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UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

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Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#51

Post by asdff »

RijilV wrote: post #43
rumanator wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately a PhD is sold as a key step for a well-paying and fulfilling career where you can make a difference. As we live in a society where education is fundamental to success and having a good life, a PhD is considered as the last and most exclusive step in a promising career path. But then the disappointing part is that the system in place is designed to exploit newcomers and place them in an abuse relationshi…

There’s no shortage of folks being sold “key steps” to high paying jobs. Maybe their meter stick is different from yours, but taking that job as the night attendant at the hotel to move up the ranks or getting a salaried position as an assistant manager at Burger King as a path to a regional manager. Lots of folks trying to sell you a path to success.

It's not like that. If you want to be hired as a staff scientist, you need a PhD. If you have an MS you can't be a staff scientist. If you have a BS you can't be a staff scientist. The most you'd get with those degrees is Research Assistant or Technician, then you will hit a ceiling in your career unless you step away from research and step more into business. This is true in academia, government labs, and the private sector, both in the U.S. and internationally.

It's like if you want to be a General, you are going to have to be a Private first. There is a progression in the sciences.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#52

Post by asdff »

chrisseaton wrote: post #37
rumanator wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately a PhD is sold as a key step for a well-paying and fulfilling career where you can make a difference. As we live in a society where education is fundamental to success and having a good life, a PhD is considered as the last and most exclusive step in a promising career path. But then the disappointing part is that the system in place is designed to exploit newcomers and place them in an abuse relationshi…

But you don’t have to work for the university while you do your PhD if you don’t want to. I didn’t - I worked for a company instead. Maybe if the university had paid more I’d have worked for it instead.

Most schools will kick you out of the program if you take on a job during your PhD.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#53

Post by asdff »

datashow wrote: post #33
antiterra wrote: post #24

I got filled with righteous internet rage when I read the headline, but then I read the article. The particular strike was implemented by withholding fall grades, which seems to unnecessarily burden students who are to be buried under crushing debt, no? Also, they are apparently unionized and this strike was against the extant agreements. The consequences of not getting a grade can affect a student’s entire career an…

So the correct title should be: California university fired 54 grad students who withheld students' final grades Is firing sufficient for punishment?

Only they fired them because they were arrested for sitting in the road, not for failing to grade midterms.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#54

Post by asdff »

antiterra wrote: post #24

I got filled with righteous internet rage when I read the headline, but then I read the article. The particular strike was implemented by withholding fall grades, which seems to unnecessarily burden students who are to be buried under crushing debt, no? Also, they are apparently unionized and this strike was against the extant agreements. The consequences of not getting a grade can affect a student’s entire career an…

It's not like people were forced to not recieve grades. The school is free to hire graders who aren't graduate students, and the professors are free to grade their own exams. If undergrads are upset, they should be directing their anger to the administration for failing to pay for labor rather than expecting someone to do full time work on a 20k salary while their yearly rental payments total north of 24k.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#55

Post by asdff »

jariel wrote: post #44
athriren wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.5 generations ago the UC system was nearly free to attend.

1.5 generations ago in 1950, about %8 of people went to College. I don't think that 'free' in relative terms is quite accurate as it was clearly still out of reach of most people it'd seem.

People didn't go to college back then because it was out of reach, they didn't go because they didn't need to. In 1920 you could get into UCLA with a slip of paper signed by your principle certifying you did 4 years of high school; 100% of the people who produced this scrap of paper got into the school. In the 50s, this requirement was stepped up to a $5 application fee and you needed to average a B (1). It wasn't until the late 60s and early 70s that UC schools started to put limits on enrollment, and even in the 1980s UCLA's admission rate was 50%.

Perhaps the only people where college was out of reach back then were those whose transcripts and paperwork were held up by bigoted people, either on the side of the high school or the college itself.

https://www.scpr.org/news/2018/03/23/81849/hey-uc-grads-coul...

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#56

Post by asdff »

fallingfrog wrote: post #22

Hopefully this wakes people up to the fact that not only are universities not the hotbeds of leftism that they are made out to be, but they are in fact run by the same kinds of right wing plutocrats that run everything else.

Something tells me that the people who believe the former don't care very much about the latter, perhaps even cheering it on.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#57

Post by RijilV »

asdff wrote: post #51
RijilV wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no shortage of folks being sold “key steps” to high paying jobs. Maybe their meter stick is different from yours, but taking that job as the night attendant at the hotel to move up the ranks or getting a salaried position as an assistant manager at Burger King as a path to a regional manager. Lots of folks trying to sell you a path to success.

It's not like that. If you want to be hired as a staff scientist, you need a PhD. If you have an MS you can't be a staff scientist. If you have a BS you can't be a staff scientist. The most you'd get with those degrees is Research Assistant or Technician, then you will hit a ceiling in your career unless you step away from research and step more into business. This is true in academia, government labs, and the privat…

that last line is what my point is. Stepping stones and prerequisites are part of many career progressions - actually quite the norm.

There’s a way that academics come off which I don’t think they intend to - which is somehow their path is special and their trials are unique.

They’re not.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#58

Post by csb6 »

csomar wrote: post #49

I think this is a wake-up call for these grad students of how the real world works. > Instead of firing TAs who are standing up for a decent standard of living for themselves, UC must sit down at the bargaining table and negotiate a cost of living increase. Sitting at the negotiations table where you hold none of the cards means you are not getting the pay increase you are asking for. Striking is for workers who know…

I also think it is a good introduction to the real world, but for a different reason: it shows that workers are treated as disposable goods that employers can and will throw away whenever they become too much of a hassle or ask for compensation that reflects the value they bring to the organization. Universities are no different to businesses in this respect; the success of colleges depends on the grunt work of grad students and professors not on the tenure track. Universities will openly deny sane living conditions to these people, and fire them for asking for enough to pay their rents. The way workers in this country are treated is god-awful, and I'm saddened by the people in this thread who are cheering the firing of these students.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#59

Post by dragonwriter »

asdff wrote: post #51
RijilV wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no shortage of folks being sold “key steps” to high paying jobs. Maybe their meter stick is different from yours, but taking that job as the night attendant at the hotel to move up the ranks or getting a salaried position as an assistant manager at Burger King as a path to a regional manager. Lots of folks trying to sell you a path to success.

It's not like that. If you want to be hired as a staff scientist, you need a PhD. If you have an MS you can't be a staff scientist. If you have a BS you can't be a staff scientist. The most you'd get with those degrees is Research Assistant or Technician, then you will hit a ceiling in your career unless you step away from research and step more into business. This is true in academia, government labs, and the privat…

> If you want to be hired as a staff scientist, you need a PhD. If you have an MS you can't be a staff scientist. If you have a BS you can't be a staff scientist.

That's not entirely true, though as I understand it is becoming more true; there are definitely places that will promote to positions for which the normal route is a post-graduate degree based on a lesser degree plus experience (including publications under the rubric of experience).

Now, university faculty positions, degree standards tend to be ironclad, though.

Re: UC Santa Cruz fires 54 grad students who were striking for higher pay

#60

Post by csb6 »

antiterra wrote: post #24

I got filled with righteous internet rage when I read the headline, but then I read the article. The particular strike was implemented by withholding fall grades, which seems to unnecessarily burden students who are to be buried under crushing debt, no? Also, they are apparently unionized and this strike was against the extant agreements. The consequences of not getting a grade can affect a student’s entire career an…

If you read the rest of the article, you would see that the union is alleging that the UC administration was not willing to engage in negotiations to raise compensation for grad students, who were unable to afford their rent payments. It's no wonder a wildcat strike happened.

Also, I am saddened by your comment about withholding grades being an unnecessary "burden". That's the point of a strike. What do you think a strike is? They are withholding, not erasing grades, and the goal of the strikers is to force the university to pay attention. The true "unnecessary burden" is UC Santa Cruz not paying grad students enough to pay their rents. If the university had done so, then the grad students would not have had to try to get the administration's attention.

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