Kickstarter employees vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#551

Post by Bedon292 » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

Seenso wrote: post #516

yibg wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in terms of salary isn’t an union somewhat contradictory to the engineering ethos of meritocracy? I mean we’d like to think that the good ideas win and impact and outcome matters. We hold up the 10x engineers and those that make an outsized contribution to the industry / company / product right? Shouldn’t they get higher compensation compared to the rest of the work force? How do we square that with collective b…

> Just in terms of salary isn’t an union somewhat contradictory to the engineering ethos of meritocracy? I mean we’d like to think that the good ideas win and impact and outcome matters. We hold up the 10x engineers and those that make an outsized contribution to the industry / company / product right? Not necessarily. I'd imagine that a union could negotiate its pay-scales any way it likes, which could take into acc…

While I agree if the 10x is making 120 and it moves to 150 that is good for everyone. But what if there is a 10x who actually makes 200. Would you ask them to take a pay cut so everyone is on that same 150? I think people will have a hard time with that. I feel people will always want more money for performing better, or get incentivised to perform at the exact right level of that compensation and not more. I am curious what other people think on this. Is there some desire that most people have to be that stellar performer and get that extra compensation, which might make them not want to Unionize so they can try? Would also be curious as to how the breakdown in these votes go. Are the people already better off (well above mean compensation) less likely to vote for Unionization?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#552

Post by Waterluvian » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

I'm excited by this. I hope they utilize this as an opportunity to improve employee well-being and force the employer to treat issues like climate change as an actual hard requirement and not a "nice to have."

I think the only concern I have, which I've seen with a lot of unions, is that they can evolve to become an us vs. them mentality, which enables absolutely mediocre people to keep their jobs at the cost of everyone.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#553

Post by commandlinefan » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:03 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #3

I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. The only downside I can think of is ageism, but then again, I have colleagues in their 50s and 60s where I work. But I suppose this isn't universal. (I'm in Atlanta and we have a lot of older workers. Age doesn't seem…

> we can go anywhere and get a job

that's exactly like the current one.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#554

Post by Balero » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

yibg wrote: post #431

Balero wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience I have had with UK unions is very different from this, and the other descriptions of unions in the US. I only had a few interactions with them (in a union capacity, the rep was a normal worker as well). These were things like: Getting some new equipment for the break room (kettle and mugs), pushing some new health and safety process (developed alongside the company), and then the yearly meeting, which…

That sounds like a much better relationship. But in that case isn’t the role of the Union almost redundant? I mean what’s stopping the workers and management from just having a dialog without a union? Another thing is I don’t want the same X% increase as everyone else. What if I’m better or worse employee? Why should I get the same output for variable input?

I mean in theory nothing. But then that dialogue would have to be called something, and it would basically be the union at that point.

I mean that's all the union is, a group of employees having a unified relationship with the company.

I was working in a factory at the time, and the nature of that work didn't lend itself to individual bargaining, like say software engineering. That said I don't see why you couldn't ask for more if you're a better employee, I never got told I couldn't ask. It might be down a different path, like a promotion. And not every union would necessarily do any salary negotiation.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#555

Post by blaser-waffle » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

jkingsbery wrote: post #494

cortesoft wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason athletes unionize, though, is because they play for monopoly leagues; there are no competitors for the top leagues in most American sports, so it isn't like you can just leave and play in the other NBA if you don't like their practices.

The league monopoly power is probably the primary reason that it happened - before free agency (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_agent#Major_League_Baseba... ) became a thing, a team would own you for life (or until you were traded), so you had no recourse - you couldn't even leave for another team in the same league after your contract was up! White collar employees generally don't work on a contract like that…

> I think NFL is the shortest average career length for North American sports at something like 2-3 years...Athletes also have to worry about physical injury that don't exist in white collar environments, which has led, for example, to changing touchback rules in football and adding a 26th man to the roster in baseball this season.

You're burying the lede there: the careers, particularly in sports like football, are short because sports actively break people. Athletes can tear their ACLs and alter their ability to walk or run for years, or end up with traumatic brain injuries that permanently alter their personality. After 5 years they're used up and cast aside -- and who in the public remembers a 2nd string Linebacker?

Given the immense amount of training, suffering, and injury... I'd come to the same conclusion re: bargaining.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#556

Post by duxup » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

Athletic unions are generally there because the top leagues are monolithic, there aren't other places to go with similar compensation. It's sort of a different playing field.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#557

Post by shadowgovt » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #407

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

> 1. Why do tech workers need a union? I don't know if a union is the answer, but tech workers aren't immune to management hi-jinks: "Apple and Google's wage-fixing cartel involved dozens more companies, over one million employees" https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

This is an excellent example, because the key thing is: the companies involved weren't even thinking of it as wage-fixing. They were thinking of it as avoiding disruption to launch schedules by not churning people with low bus-factor.

Employees and management have different perspectives on the work agreement and management's is over-represented because they set most of the company policy. An amplified employee voice can lead to better workplace design in general.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#558

Post by notyourday » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:07 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #548

notyourday wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech industry is full of entitled prima donnas living in an alternative reality valid only in their heads. US median wage according to data for 2016 was about $32k [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... ]. According to Payscale Kickstarter pays its employees an average of $96,897 a year. Salaries at Kickstarter range from an average of $62,662 to $142,634 a year. Deciding to treat tech mana…

"Software engineers aren't a privileged set. They're just less fucked than the rest of the U.S. Former Middle Class." https://www.quora.com/Why-do-software-engineers-make-so-much...

Not recognizing that making over 100k/year sitting in $800 chairs, eating company provided organic snacks, having subsidized meals ( or fully free ) in lovely offices and complaining that the management is not woke enough that it dared to pull the "It is always a good time to punch a nazi" project before reinstating it not to offend the woke employees is the definition of privileged set.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#559

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:07 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #527

celdon25 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. There are dozens and dozens of threads on this site about the cancerous software engineering interview techniques in widespread use in the industry. Despite having 15 years of experience and a lot of accomplishments…

You think a union is going to fix the interview process?

Why couldn't it be a potential tool towards addressing this problem? Will the status quo of angry blog articles posted to HN and Blind do any better?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#560

Post by username90 » Tue, Feb 18, 2020, 8:08 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #354

nradov wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A friend of mine worked as a developer at defense contractor with mostly union employees. One time they moved him to a different cubicle. Due to union work rules he literally had to wait two days for a union electrician to come by and plug his desktop computer into the wall socket. Just ridiculous.

Since we're all trotting out anecdotes... I knew a guy who came to work at Google and didn't get a laptop for two weeks. No unions were involved.

That is not the norm though, typically everyone gets their laptop together in a big room the first hours of orientation. You can even request a new laptop and get it within a couple of hours, so if the person didn't get a laptop their first day something must have gone very wrong somewhere...