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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#431

Post by yibg »

Balero wrote: post #202
duxup wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with US unions was similar. They're just another layer of bureaucracy that is NOT required to respond to you as an individual in any way. I've had lots of poor experience with US unions protecting the lowest denominator at the expense of everyone else. They seem to focus on very specific rules that came up in specific situations applied to everything possible and end up just creating a web that is no di…

The experience I have had with UK unions is very different from this, and the other descriptions of unions in the US. I only had a few interactions with them (in a union capacity, the rep was a normal worker as well). These were things like: Getting some new equipment for the break room (kettle and mugs), pushing some new health and safety process (developed alongside the company), and then the yearly meeting, which…

That sounds like a much better relationship. But in that case isn’t the role of the Union almost redundant? I mean what’s stopping the workers and management from just having a dialog without a union?

Another thing is I don’t want the same X% increase as everyone else. What if I’m better or worse employee? Why should I get the same output for variable input?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#432

Post by ksr_throwaway »

dangus wrote: post #2

> That dynamic doesn’t reflect who we are as a company, how we interact, how we make decisions, or where we need to go. We believe that in many ways it would set us back, and that the us vs. them binary already has. What a shameful statement. Kickstarter has a so-so 3.6 on Glassdoor, and a sub-50% CEO approval rating. A lot of reviews talk about a secretive, insulated management group. You don’t see companies with 4.…

> Treat employees like real people you care about and avoid turning the C-level suite into a force of secrecy, discrimination, and exclusion.

This was the main driver for unionization. Outrageous incompetence from upper management.

Source: I work at Kickstarter

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#433

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

mdonahoe wrote: post #411
elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

Athletics is not as luxurious you might think: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/07/olympic-games-...

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#434

Post by linuxftw »

Mirioron wrote: post #391
mason55 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions, in my experience, exist to help keep mediocre, unmotivated employees employed. One has no incentive to excel, as promotions are based on years "served", much like prison. There is nothing inherent in unions that make them operate like that.

There is nothing inherent that makes dictatorships violent. Yet they are. But maybe there is something inherent that makes them violent after all? It's simply not obvious at a glance that they're going to be violent. I'm not sure that there's nothing inherent in unions that makes them promote mediocrity. There could be - the fact that unions add more layers to the bureaucracy and slow things down could very well have…

> There is nothing inherent that makes dictatorships violent. Yet they are.

They are violent in the same way Democracies are violent. If you break some arbitrary rule, we put you in a cage. If you resist, you die.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#435

Post by daotoad »

Uhhrrr wrote: post #380
zipwitch wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that "union rules" or "the way the company had agreed to comply with their agreement with the union"? Because 'work to rule' can be a double-edged sword, and in my experience companies just love to blame their own chosen behavior on the union. "We have to fire you if you're late five times this quarter, because the union" really means "after we frequently and arbitrarily abused employees under the excuse of 'atte…

Think about where the company's interest lies. Without the union, of course they would want their employee to just plug the thing in. They wouldn't agree to such a silly stricture if it wasn't forced upon them by the union.

But if as a low-level manager I can gain sympathy and build relationships with my superiors by blaming my inefficiency on the union-devils, why not cause a petty delay with passive aggressive rules.

The union might be a corrupt and self serving enterprise. They may just be reacting to abuses by management.

Perhaps the company kept getting fines from the fire marshal for unsafe use of extension cords. Management tries to use that as an excuse to harass or fire their electrical workers. The union responds by saying that their electricians never saw nor approved the use of the cords and that they had no way of knowing they were in use. After enough hostile interaction, you wind up with a rule that nobody can plug their own computer into an existing outlet.

The places where I hear about the worst red tape, are places where the relationship between the unions and management are really antagonistic. Both sides need to remember that everyone wants the employer to be successful, because then there are more profits for everyone to share.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#436

Post by dopamean »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #433
mdonahoe wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

Athletics is not as luxurious you might think: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/07/olympic-games-...

Right but when someone says "athletes unionize" in this context they're almost certainly talking about the NFL and NBA. Not semi-amateur olympians.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#437

Post by throw_m239339 »

exabrial wrote: post #8

They'd be wise to learn from history: There are many people willing do your job for cheaper, most of them in other countries working for smaller wages.

> They'd be wise to learn from history: There are many people willing do your job for cheaper, most of them in other countries working for smaller wages.

Then why didn't all start ups outsource all their IT jobs to India for instance already? They are considerably cheaper than US software engineers.

I mean what stopped all these IT businesses to do that yesterday? I know more instances of businesses that tried to outsource their IT overseas only to go back on that decision, than successful IT outsourcing stories.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#438

Post by cortesoft »

mdonahoe wrote: post #411
elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

Part of the reason athletes unionize, though, is because they play for monopoly leagues; there are no competitors for the top leagues in most American sports, so it isn't like you can just leave and play in the other NBA if you don't like their practices.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#439

Post by yibg »

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

Just in terms of salary isn’t an union somewhat contradictory to the engineering ethos of meritocracy? I mean we’d like to think that the good ideas win and impact and outcome matters. We hold up the 10x engineers and those that make an outsized contribution to the industry / company / product right? Shouldn’t they get higher compensation compared to the rest of the work force? How do we square that with collective bargaining that has set salaries and annual increases?

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#440

Post by daotoad »

pathseeker wrote: post #328
azinman2 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all pros and cons. This is very much one of the big negatives of unions. That said, they also are one of the bigger drivers of worker pay increasing over time. In an era of massive income inequality, it’s a loss. I wish there was a way to get best of both worlds. —- I’ve always felt ESD stuff is way overhyped. I’ve handled a ton of electronics over decades without any ESD protection, and never had an issue. I ju…

> That said, they also are one of the bigger drivers of worker pay increasing over time. Not in the tech industry. Salaries in software have outpaced any union environment just through competition for labor and a booming economy rewarding technology.

River boat pilots once could say the same thing.

As could steam engine operators, the original "engineers".

Conditions change.

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