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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#811

Post by dwild »

allovernow wrote: post #706
dwild wrote: post #699

Reading this article I got a big flash when I read "slammed into a concrete barrier", because it nearly happened to me a few weeks ago and it shook me quite a bit to think of the implications. It wasn't a self driving car though, it was just a bit of aquaplaning, but I was still letting myself distracted enough too close to the concrete barrier and not be aware enough of my environment by missing the water accumulati…

>Autopilot or not, YOU are still the driver. If there's a mistake, YOU should be responsible for it. As long as there's a steering wheel, and I believe there will be one for a pretty long time, you are still the one responsible to make sure theses things doesn't happen But that totally defeats the purpose of autopilot...

> But that totally defeats the purpose of autopilot...

Of a true autopilot, sure, but for now they all are pretty far from being one. For now it's only purpose is to have to make less effort while driving.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#812

Post by greedo »

ReptileMan wrote: post #507
siljon wrote: post #311

He complained once before about this stretch, and yet he kept driving auto pilot at the same location? I would never dare to do that, and sounds suicidal. Also I would never dare to fully trust auto-pilot and I think they should change the official name to driver assistance instead, until auto-pilot is ready. Which is how Tesla want to treat it according to the article: "Tesla says Autopilot is intended to be used fo…

It is not suicidal, but probably worthy of a honorable mention in the annual Darwin Awards roundup since it was a very bad judgement on his part. As an engineer - he should have known better than to continue to use the feature the moment it became unreliable for reasons unknown. Those kind of failure modes are extremely devious killers.

So all the engineers who experience a BSOD, they discontinue using Windows immediately after?

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#813

Post by mumblemumble »

riversflow wrote: post #803
Drew_ wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything I would expect less knowledgeable people to be more skeptical and cautious than somebody who has a vested interest and passion for technology. I can't imagine anybody other than a tech enthusiast who would maintain trust in a self driving car technology that previously attempted to veer them into a barrier.

100% agree with this. Most people I’ve talked to about this incident think the guy is an idiot; if you had found a car’s feature to be unsafe on a portion of your commute before, why on earth would you trust it with your and other’s lives? If you had a new fancy belaying device slip in the gym, you wouldn’t use it on your next big wall climb. I also don’t get how everyone is forgiving him for being on his phone, in a…

It's not about forgiving him for being an idiot. It's more about recognizing that there's more than just the one idiot on the road. To an approximation, pretty much everyone who has ever had a driver's license has been guilty of making an idiotic decision or two while behind the wheel.

And, Autopilot being a technology that, among other things, enables (or even encourages) idiotic behavior, there's real risk that placing too much blame on the driver's choices lulls us into an attitude that enables the next idiot to kill themselves and/or someone else.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#814

Post by harlanji »

jm4 wrote: post #776
dkonofalski wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

That’s the part I don’t get either. The only thing I can come up with is he wasn’t paying attention to the drive up to that point and didn’t notice he was in a problem area. I have a Tesla and there are definitely problem areas. You learn them fairly quickly when you are taking the same route all the time and you’re trained to either turn off autopilot or at least be alert when going through those areas. Or maybe you…

Tesla should pay for time spent in autopilot in these cases. It’s clearly not a finished product. That could incentivize attention paying as well.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#815

Post by mark-r »

phkahler wrote: post #710
StevenRayOrr wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We just need to know that, even armed with all that knowledge, he still made the decision he did, and that we should not expect others with less knowledge of how software works to be any less human. This is maybe one of the most important lessons of the 20th and 21st centuries (at least thus far): knowledge does not automatically prevent us from errors in judgments nor does it necessarily protect us from misfortune…

knowledge does not automatically prevent us from errors in judgments nor does it necessarily protect us from misfortune. Relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/795/

Not automatically, but it can help.

I was in this very situation at the top of Pikes Peak. A storm moved in and the park rangers closed the place and sent everybody away. They knew the statistics of being hit by lightning in that very place.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#816

Post by troyvit »

mumblemumble wrote: post #659
dkonofalski wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

We don't need to understand it. We just need to know that, even armed with all that knowledge, he still made the decision he did, and that we should not expect others with less knowledge of how software works to be any less human.

Maybe we should keep it the way and use it as a culling method.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#817

Post by shrimpx »

asdff wrote: post #354
WilliamEdward wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of thing makes me think software engineering should require an actual accreditation like a formal engineering job does.

Try to avoid putting your life in the hands of closed source software.

I don’t know why open source would make much of a difference in this case. It’s not like open source means guaranteed correctness.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#818

Post by eastof »

neuronic wrote: post #441
Alupis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

> This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. What really bugs me, as someone working in consulting as a hands-on backend developer with a previous background in technical consulting at an accounting Big4 (student job), is the insane amount of PR, politics and marketing talk by people who have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what they are talking about. I witnessed politicians an…

Sorry for the out of the blue unrelated reply, but I am currently stuck working as a technical consultant at one of the Big4, how did you make your way out of this? I feel like I am learning about antiquated technologies, and that pivoting to a software engineering job more aligned with my interests, skills, and sanity feels harder every day. Even something like you describe you are doing now sounds much better than what I'm doing now. Also I know exactly what you are talking about with the marketing and PR talk it is insane.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#819

Post by bdamm »

jskrablin wrote: post #781
bdamm wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know that, but also we ought to know that pushing through the hard problems by rolling out systems operating world-wide and interacting with real people is the only way forward toward improved safety, reduced mental slavery to the menial task of driving, and the time and relationship freedom that comes with it. So yep, I let my Tesla do lots of driving. And I do it knowing that the brake pedal and the steering whe…

I wouldn't feel comfortable in a vehicle that may, or may not react to some situation on the road ahead. Because one day it will decide to do $something_really_stupid and you won't be able to react in time/correctly because you'll be too busy singing karaoke. With some extra bad luck, you'll die/kill someone else because of that.

Yeah, but is that a bigger risk than some dumbass in a truck blowing a red light and plowing into my door? Based on where Tesla is at I don't think it is. They're already reasonably below the median risk we all accept for driving at all. After all, my butt can feel that the car is doing something seriously unexpected way before my eyeballs can. So I'm going to keep singing, with my thumb gently on the wheel and one eye on the road.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#820

Post by turk73 »

Alupis wrote: post #388
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

Totally agree. We skipped right over "better driver training" in order to have meme stock stocks that short squeeze to nearly $1000. Such awful anti-patterns in humanity.
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