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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#771

Post by dkonofalski »

Balanceinfinity wrote: post #768
dkonofalski wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

He was an engineer - he probably wanted to try and "solve" the problem (isolate the car's behavior and see what inputs are causing the incorrect reaction) and engineer a solution. As an engineer, I can understand this drive. He probably felt he was on top of it because he knew of the bug.

I can understand that drive too. I cannot understand allowing a technology that you know to be unsafe take over completely so that I can play a game on my phone.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#772

Post by dkonofalski »

dahdum wrote: post #712
dkonofalski wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

His phone was using data, that’s not proof he was using it and distracted. Spotify streaming a new playlist could be responsible for that.

> Recovered phone logs show that a strategy game called “Three Kingdoms” was “active during the driver’s trip to work,” the NTSB said. Investigators said the log data “does not provide enough information to ascertain” whether Huang “was holding the phone or how interactive he was,” though it said “most players have both hands on the phone to support the device and manipulate game actions.” Huang’s data usage was “consistent” with online game activity “about the time of the crash,” according to the NTSB.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#773

Post by copperx »

jerkstate wrote: post #734
jhallenworld wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe he was fulfilling Apple's demands: either attend a meeting on the phone while driving, or wake up earlier. (Definitely not singling out Apple here.. at IBM I had a coworker who was in an accident during a phone meeting- luckily non-fatal).

I have coworkers who regularly take meetings or text chat/email while driving. It makes me uncomfortable. I have tried hinting that it's a bad idea, but don't feel comfortable telling them directly (don't think it would do anything except harm our relationship due to me questioning their judgement) or reporting to HR (fear of retaliation, some of the coworkers are senior to me in the management chain). On the other h…

You're way too cautious in your human interactions, which is terribly sad. But I understand it because of our business culture.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#774

Post by ng7j5d9 »

eloisant wrote: post #317
heavyset_go wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Current self-driving might be safer than the avarage driver, So far there isn't any evidence for this assumption.

If you compare the number of accident per km, I'm pretty sure the numbers for self-driving are much lower than human drivers. When a self-driving car is involved in an accident, it's in the news all over the world. Human drivers kill or get killed every day, in every country.

I think the statistics to compare self-driving miles vs human driven miles are quite tough to judge.

Tesla was criticized quite a bit at one point for comparing deaths per Autopilot mile to deaths per all motor vehicle miles. This was a bad comparison because motor vehicles included motorcycles, as well as older, poorly-maintained cars, etc.

Then Tesla released a comparison between Autopilot miles in Teslas and human-driven miles in Teslas where Autopilot was eligible to be engaged. This felt like a much more fair comparison, but Teslas are lenient about where Autopilot can be engaged - just because the car will allow it doesn't mean many people would choose to do so in that location, so there might be some bias towards "easier" locations where Autopilot is actually engaged. There's also the potential issue of Autopilot disengaging, and then being in an accident shortly afterwards.

This is morbid, but I also wonder about the number of suicides by car that are included in the overall auto fatality statistics. If someone has decided to end their life, a car might be the most convenient way (and it might appear accidental after the fact). That would drive up the deaths-per-mile stat for human drivers, but makes it tougher for me to decide which is safer - Autopilot driving or me driving?

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#775

Post by _ph_ »

Lammy wrote: post #709
_ph_ wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the driver was still unresponsive until woken by the police, I would think it was the autopilot eventually stopping the car.

They stopped the car by driving in front of it to trigger the braking sensor.

That would work too :)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#776

Post by jm4 »

dkonofalski wrote: post #639
fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

This is why I don't understand the sad conclusion of the story in the article. The driver knew that AutoPilot had issues with that stretch of the freeway and was able to repeat the issues on several occasions but still thought it best to be on his phone, while driving 71 mph, at the mercy of AutoPilot? Especially considering that he was an engineer who had expressed concern over this, it seems silly to me that he wou…

That’s the part I don’t get either. The only thing I can come up with is he wasn’t paying attention to the drive up to that point and didn’t notice he was in a problem area.

I have a Tesla and there are definitely problem areas. You learn them fairly quickly when you are taking the same route all the time and you’re trained to either turn off autopilot or at least be alert when going through those areas. Or maybe you test it out with your hands on the wheel ready to take over to see if they fixed the bug.

There were a couple spots on my normal driving routes where the car would inexplicably swerve. It happened one time in each spot and that was enough. Both those spots have been fixed since, but there’s no way I’d be on my phone not paying attention driving through there. I’m still cautious. There are two more spots where the car will brake to 45 mph on the highway and then speed back up after a few hundred feet. I am always on high alert around there and usually won’t even use autopilot in those areas.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#777

Post by solean »

fxtentacle wrote: post #249
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite any sources that AI fails harder? I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to.

The dead Uber pedestrian where the AI dismissed the data as faulty and did not slow down at all. I think every human would slow down if they see things that they cannot explain. An AI will not. It's basically the same problem as when an image recognition AI is 99% sure that the photo of your cat shows guacamole. Current AIs do not have a concept of absolute confidence, they only produce an estimate relative to the ot…

Some humans drive blackout drunk. You overestimate our competence.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#778

Post by Balanceinfinity »

saalweachter wrote: post #627
ijpsud wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that just "image de-obfuscation" though? Seems like narrow AI will be able to out-class humans at that in no time. You can generate as much training data for that as you want. Doesn't really require human-type intelligence. Though I guess you might mean that the obfuscation makes the edge cases even harder, which makes sense.

There's like fifty caveats that go along with this statement, but this is the internet so I'm just going to skip all that. Something like half your human brain is devoted to visual processing. There's a tendency to think that things like language is what makes the human brain special, or our ability to plan or think abstractly, and we talk about things like "eagle eyes", but the truth is humans are seeing machines wi…

citation for "half your human brain is devoted to visual processing"?

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#779

Post by cgh »

neuronic wrote: post #441
Alupis wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. It's followers see no other possible solution as acceptable. Instead of putting our heads together to make really good driver assistance technologies and being satisfied, the darn thing needs to also drive itself everywhere otherwise we're leaving something on the table! Untill we have zero deaths, we cannot stop demanding…

> This whole self driving, fully autonomous thing has become some sort of strange faux-religion. What really bugs me, as someone working in consulting as a hands-on backend developer with a previous background in technical consulting at an accounting Big4 (student job), is the insane amount of PR, politics and marketing talk by people who have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what they are talking about. I witnessed politicians an…

You think that's bad? Listen to sales types talk about "blockchain" sometime.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#780

Post by copperx »

env123 wrote: post #609
fxtentacle wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Count me guilty then, because I am also hoping to one day take a nap while the car drives me around. Until then, I found the next best thing is booking an Uber. They'll even use venture capital to subsidize my ride :) But wait, isn't that exactly why they are now in such a rush and cannot accept anything less than full autonomy? From what I heard, Uber has been burning billions of VC money to capture market share. An…

There is this other technology called "chauffeur"

And in the third world (e.g., Mexico), they are an order of magnitude cheaper than a Tesla.
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