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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#301

Post by nonbirithm »

ironmagma wrote: post #180
PopeRigby wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think self driving cars are a ridiculous solution to a problem we created and doesn't need to exist. The US building out the country for cars wasn't a good way to do transportation. If we just had trains going from city to city and subways in the cities, we wouldn't even need self driving cars.

This is true, but there’s no rolling back history. We’re quite locked in to our current situation and the best we can do is work within the constraints that have been established.

I sometimes wonder, from a science fiction point of view, how cities would be designed if we somehow had foresight of the consequences (social, environmental, etc.) of building infrastructure centered around the usage of cars for daily transportation. We don't really hold much resentment for how things started since people just didn't know about the problems that over-reliance on cars would cause decades down the line. Would people still consider the convenience/economic opportunity the automobile afforded to outweigh the problems?

(Also, there is a body of fiction set in a future Earth where, since people several decades ago did have knowledge of the problem of climate change, they end up being collectively resented by their descendants for their inaction/ignorance in addressing it.)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#302

Post by kjksf »

deelowe wrote: post #174
ztjio wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their customer is perfectly aware of whether he has a video game going on in his hands instead of a steering wheel. No telemetry needed from that perspective.

You're missing the point. The family does not know this nor do they have access to this data which would be extremely useful in determining what their legal options are.

It wasn't Tesla.

NTHSB investigated the crash and got this particular information with Apple's help.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#303

Post by Piskvorrr »

SilasX wrote: post #130
catalogia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

Yes, the public holds misconceptions about how much the autopilot on a plane does. But some of their beliefs are accurate, and would be dangerous when extended to a car: like how, when the plane AP is engaged, you don’t need sub-second reaction times for possible obstacles. You do need that in a Tesla.

Fairly sure that you do need that for autoland, to engage TO/GA (for go-around) and take control. Most other cases, AP disengagement indeed means "now we think about what next".

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#304

Post by shrimpx »

bananabreakfast wrote: post #273
rullelito wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People in general think this is what autopilot means since that is how it is portrayed in movies and books.

What movies are you watching where they turn on autopilot and the plane lands itself?? If anything, movies portray planes as extremely hard to fly, and the heroic pilot always has to take over from the autopilot.

In the movie “Airplane” the autopilot is an inflatable humanlike doll full on manning the plane. :-)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#305

Post by Talanes »

ironmagma wrote: post #224
Rapzid wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't really want all the consequences that come with the distinct lack of rural areas either..

But if you have denser cities, that leaves more room for rural areas. I don’t think anyone is arguing for less rural land, but as it stands, it is legally impossible to build another city like San Francisco or Manhattan in the US, and that’s a problem for sustainability. People want to live in those places, and not just because they are old.

It's legally impossible to even build San Francisco into a place like Manhattan. Most the city is only zoned for two stories.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#306

Post by Piskvorrr »

perl4ever wrote: post #91
catalogia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

"the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself." Is this just being pedantic? If you say the autopilot doesn't land the plane, maybe a pilot would agree for all I know, but "autoland" seems to be a thing, right? When I read about "autoland" sy…

Which means that both pilots 1.set the parameters (not a single button push), 2.follow closely that the plane does what they would have, 3.ready to take over at any moment, as the AP cannot even reliably detect it's not on the happy path; this does take off some of the cognitive load off the pilots, but it's very far from the narrative "push button and have a coffee" that's being peddled here.

In fact, it's more of "hold this heading and glideslope" than anything else - a smarter cruise control, if you will.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#307

Post by bonestamp2 »

keanzu wrote: post #284
bonestamp2 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of super cruise -- it seems like a lidar scan of the freeway would have prevented Huang's death. But, obviously the freeway changes over time so I wonder how frequently GM re-scans the freeways. Lidar is expensive of course, but it also seems so obvious that the lidar needs to be onboard the vehicle.

Not sure but apparently they detect road works and are able to update the maps remotely.

Interesting, thanks.

Tesla should put Lidar in their Semi Trucks. Since they'll be constantly driving the whole country, they would have a lot of regularly updated scan data that they could deploy to their lower price point vehicles that only have cameras.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#308

Post by keanzu »

mrtksn wrote: post #227
_ph_ wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the car is making noises when you don't hold the wheels and after 3 warnings, the Autopilot system is disabled until the car is restarted. The Autopilot is very explicitly not suitable for unobserved operation.

How do people sleep or play on their phones then? Are the warnings not frequent and prominent enough? Are people hacking it and disabling it? What's the deal here?

With a Tesla you hang a banana off the steering wheel. The weight tricks the system into thinking it is a hand.

With GM's Super Cruise you can go completely hands free, that's the intended use, but it has eye tracking to make sure you are constantly watching the road.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#309

Post by keanzu »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #242
ip26 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc... Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already la…

It reminds me of an article I read about Air France flight 447 (I think it was this: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-... ). The crux of the article is that when you can automate away a problem 99% of the time, you're much more likely to have trouble when the now-rare problem actually crops up.

It is a flying problem known as "The Children of Magenta"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#310

Post by maeln »

mrits wrote: post #167
PopeRigby wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think self driving cars are a ridiculous solution to a problem we created and doesn't need to exist. The US building out the country for cars wasn't a good way to do transportation. If we just had trains going from city to city and subways in the cities, we wouldn't even need self driving cars.

Not everyone wants to live in a dense population.

This is true. But what I wish for is better public transport in countryside. Automated train that can run also late at night and more bus would have relieved most of my woes when I was living in the countryside.
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