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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#41

Post by mannykannot »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #18
kdudhshdjf wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liability should always lie with the self driving car. In the real world weird shit happens on roads, people adapt and are expected to adapt. What good is a car that I can't trust to be at least as reliable as an overly defensive version of myself?

If human drivers are getting killed in the same spot the same is it still a vehicle saftey problem?

Yes, because responsibility is not a zero-sum game. If the system cannot cope well with sub-optimal roads, it should not be in use wherever one might encounter sub-optimal roads.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#42

Post by danielinoa »

According to this article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30877577/driver-tesla-mod...

"Data from his phone indicates that a mobile game was active during his drive and that his hands were not on the wheel during the six seconds ahead of the crash."

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#43

Post by catalogia »

m00x wrote: post #30
salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.…

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot.

From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself.

In choosing to name their technology after another technology which the general public has misconceptions about, Tesla chose to inherit those misconceptions.

Edit: I'm surprised there is any incredulity here, I've been hearing people say "planes basically fly themselves" and "all it takes to be a pilot is pushing a button" for years. Most often this misconception is surfaced in casual conversation, but here is one example of the misconception getting published: 'A computerized brain known as the autopilot can fly a 787 jet unaided, but irrationally we place human pilots in the cockpit to babysit the autopilot "just in case."' - https://www.wired.com/2012/12/ff-robots-will-take-our-jobs/

Edit 2: Re: Autoland

Modern airliners have autoland, but always take off under human control. Autonomous takeoff is not used by any airliner.

Anyway, to your point, a modern airline's autopilot system allows pilots to take their hands off the controls. Tesla's manual says that is forbidden: "Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times." (page 106: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_x_owners_man...)

So no matter which way you slice it, Tesla has chosen misleading terminology.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#44

Post by qeqeqeqe »

taneq wrote: post #5
WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #2

Question: if the guy thought the Autopilot was failing, why did he continue to use it?

It's the curse of SAE Level 3. The driver is responsible for monitoring a system that works fine 99% of the time, they start to feel a false sense of security and when it does fail they're not paying as much attention as they need to be. This is also why SAE autonomy levels are a poor measure of a vehicle's capabilities, but that's another rant.

It's still safer than not having it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#45

Post by jaxn »

harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

I have autoplilot on the VAST majority of the time. It does not make any sudden movements. If anything, it brakes a little heavier than I would prefer at times, but there are rarely any steering problems.

It has improved a lot in the 9 months I have had it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#46

Post by [deleted] »

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

[deleted]

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#47

Post by jakear »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #18
kdudhshdjf wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Liability should always lie with the self driving car. In the real world weird shit happens on roads, people adapt and are expected to adapt. What good is a car that I can't trust to be at least as reliable as an overly defensive version of myself?

If human drivers are getting killed in the same spot the same is it still a vehicle saftey problem?

A much higher percentage of autopilot cars had fatal collisions at that location than non-autopilot cars. That’s cause for concern. And for all we know the previous driver was distracted. Being not-worse than a distracted human isn’t very confidence-inspiring.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#48

Post by runako »

I am intrigued by Teslas, and am considering purchasing one. However, I would feel better about the purchase if there was absolutely no autopilot software or hardware on board. Ideally that would mean zero, including non-autopilot builds of all system and control software so there is no chance the car will ever engage autopilot.

Is it possible to buy a Tesla completely devoid of autopilot, or is this type of accident potentially a risk in all of them?

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#49

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

catalogia wrote: post #43
m00x wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.…

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

> From what I've seen

Where? How? That's not a scientific statement.

> Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself.

Who thinks that? That seems like a hyperbole and you can't possibly know.

> Tesla chose to inherit those misconceptions.

Assuming all those above assumptions are true and assuming Tesla reached those same conclusions as the people that didn't know how airplanes work.

Just loads of speculating and attempted mind-reading...

> Autopilot -> Automatic Pilot

Autopilot is one word and has a specific definition in avionics. It keeps the altitude and heading.

If you rip the word apart and magically transform Auto to Automatic you have Automatic and Pilot, but there is no such thing as an automatic pilots, just pilots, that's why autopilot is one word.

Under that same logic automobiles should be automatic mobility devices that self-drive already.

You can't change the definition of a word to meet your argument. You also can't speculate that people probably might think the word may mean this.

Autopilot !== automatic pilot. That's not a thing.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#50

Post by jaxn »

aaron_m04 wrote: post #35
smileysteve wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience, not a hard turn. The worst was it was raining and inconstant lane markings around a turn. I wondered if it was going to make the turn or if it was going to make it too late towards the sidewall. It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving

> It also takes very little interaction for it to pop out of self driving That itself could be dangerous if it isn't very obvious to the driver that autopilot is no longer engaged.

Awareness of who is in control is a skill that you develop. There are audio, visual, and tactile queues.
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