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Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

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Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#91

Post by perl4ever »

catalogia wrote: post #43
m00x wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.…

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

"the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself."

Is this just being pedantic? If you say the autopilot doesn't land the plane, maybe a pilot would agree for all I know, but "autoland" seems to be a thing, right? When I read about "autoland" systems, I also notice they use the phrase "autopilot-controlled landing". I'm not convinced this is about inaccuracy so much as imprecision.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#92

Post by keanzu »

perl4ever wrote: post #70
keanzu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a regulatory basis true self driving only needs to outperform humans. Humans are good at driving but imperfect we have a nasty tendency to get ourselves into accidents, both fatal and non. My thought was that the public would fear and refuse to use the technology but some brave souls are jumping right in. My opinion: full self driving is only a matter of time. At some point in the future insurance companies will f…

"At some point in the future insurance companies will figure out that self driving is less dangerous than human drivers and start offering cheaper premiums and deductibles to self driving only cars" Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though? Wouldn't it be more logical to wait and then say "hey, Geico is offering a 20% discount if I buy a new car with these features, guess they must really make…

> Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though?

Well now that you've put me on the spot like that and I have to think about it: baseless I suppose. Just a general faith that technology always improves.

> Wouldn't it be more logical

Yes, it would.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#93

Post by perl4ever »

nzrf wrote: post #90
salgernon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don'…

I also own a Subaru. The assistance is very unwelcome for the crash detection at times. Living in Minnesota the exhaust from a car in front of you can set it off. This can happen on start off of a green light and can completely decelerate the Subaru. The eyesight detects the exhaust as obstacle the car behind you is now at a loss why you are now immediately breaking off the green light. I’m not a fan at all and eye s…

I don't like the idea of automatic braking, but arguably plenty of people had irrational fears about seat belts and air bags (although the fears about air bags seem to be coming back)...so I will seriously consider the new safety features once my car insurance offers a significant discount for them.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#94

Post by LatteLazy »

thedance wrote: post #28
voodooranger wrote: post #15

breaking news from 2018? there’s nothing new here, including the deceased driver’s alleged complaints.

The news is that the NTSB released new information. Unfortunately their site is now down.

I'm not the person you replied to, but is this new info? I could have sworn I read all this last year...

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#95

Post by Balgair »

thbr99 wrote: post #7

Don't text and autopilot on level 3, which is a nascent technology. An engineer should know better. Wonder why a level 3 is allowed to market as an 'autopilot'.

> An engineer should know better

Maaaaybe? I'm not a hydraulic engineer and won't pretend to be one. So I hire plumbers when things go wrong. If they screw up, I don't tend to blame myself though. I think the same logic would apply to the deceased.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#96

Post by Balgair »

keanzu wrote: post #88
runako wrote: post #48

I am intrigued by Teslas, and am considering purchasing one. However, I would feel better about the purchase if there was absolutely no autopilot software or hardware on board. Ideally that would mean zero , including non-autopilot builds of all system and control software so there is no chance the car will ever engage autopilot. Is it possible to buy a Tesla completely devoid of autopilot, or is this type of acciden…

It is an extra cost option. Don't specify it and it won't be enabled. The hardware and software are still present in the vehicle, just turned off. There's never been a Tesla incident, that I know of, where the system has turned itself on . Every single crash has been after a deliberate engagement by the driver.

Unintended accelerations in Nissans were blamed on bit-flips due to cosmic rays. I think that one actually was true in the end. So unless you'd like to test the CPUs near nuclear reactors and electron guns, I'd say that there is a (cosmically) small risk of it turning on despite not enabling it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#97

Post by viklove »

LatteLazy wrote: post #83
runako wrote: post #48

I am intrigued by Teslas, and am considering purchasing one. However, I would feel better about the purchase if there was absolutely no autopilot software or hardware on board. Ideally that would mean zero , including non-autopilot builds of all system and control software so there is no chance the car will ever engage autopilot. Is it possible to buy a Tesla completely devoid of autopilot, or is this type of acciden…

Can't you just not use it? The driver in the crash activated autopilot intentionally shortly before the crash. He did that and then took his hands off the wheel. I can't comment on autopilots general reliability but using it appears to be entirely optional...

As a software engineer it's hard to trust code that you know has flaws, because there could be a flaw that causes autopilot to automatically turn on. Extremely unlikely, I know, but it's definitely a nagging thought. It would be nicer if there were a mechanical cutoff (not really possible in this case) so you could be absolutely sure.

I know, I know -- you can design software so that this type of flaw is completely impossible, but as a user I have no way of verifying this, and my trust has already been eroded by the feature I'm trying to disable so I really want to verify it.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#98

Post by toomuchtodo »

perl4ever wrote: post #70
keanzu wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a regulatory basis true self driving only needs to outperform humans. Humans are good at driving but imperfect we have a nasty tendency to get ourselves into accidents, both fatal and non. My thought was that the public would fear and refuse to use the technology but some brave souls are jumping right in. My opinion: full self driving is only a matter of time. At some point in the future insurance companies will f…

"At some point in the future insurance companies will figure out that self driving is less dangerous than human drivers and start offering cheaper premiums and deductibles to self driving only cars" Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though? Wouldn't it be more logical to wait and then say "hey, Geico is offering a 20% discount if I buy a new car with these features, guess they must really make…

> Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though?

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/small-biz/security-tech... (The Cambrian Explosion in Technology, and How It's Affecting Us | Seeing the progress made across various fields over the last few years, we can ask if we are witnessing a Cambrian explosion in technology today)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#99

Post by hugey010 »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #49
catalogia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

> From what I've seen Where? How? That's not a scientific statement. > Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself. Who thinks that? That seems like a hyperbole and you can't possibly know. > Tesla chose to inherit those misconceptions. Assuming all those above assumptions are true and assuming Tesla reached those same…

Just expand and define the words, and don't let your knowledge about how the tech works block your ability to reason.

Autopilot -> Automatic Pilot. Automatic: working by itself with little or no direct human control. Pilot: one qualified to control a vehicle. I'd argue if autopilot requires intervention it is hardly automatic and definitely not qualified to operate a vehicle.

Further, consider other automatic devices in most cars, such as the automatic transmission. How do people expect to intervene with a gear shift during normal operation? Never.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#100

Post by taneq »

jimmux wrote: post #77
s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From what I've seen Where? How? That's not a scientific statement. > Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself. Who thinks that? That seems like a hyperbole and you can't possibly know. > Tesla chose to inherit those misconceptions. Assuming all those above assumptions are true and assuming Tesla reached those same…

I wouldn't normally use it as a source, but Urban Dictionary shows that colloquially plenty of people consider autopilot to be complete automatic control (worryingly, even to the point of blackout drunkenness). https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=autopilot

That's referring to the human condition of "being on autopilot" (aka. your higher cognitive functions aren't doing much and you're brain's operating primarily on reflex). It's generally only used to describe situations where you've done something dumb because you were impaired or weren't really paying attention.
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