Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply • Hacker News Board

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#131

Post by runarberg » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

WifeDuringLawti wrote: post #50

bonestamp2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do both. Digital music is way more convenient to initiate, continue, store and take with you -- so I use that the most. But, it's almost too convenient in some cases to the point where I often don't appreciate what is really happening and the music just becomes background noise. Although it's obviously possible, I rarely use digital music to sit and listen to an entire album anymore. On the other hand, when I liste…

I think it's more likely your age group. When you were young listening to tapes on your parents' speakers, didn't it seem to you that kids and teens were much more into music than most adults? I'm 20, I grew up listening to albums on YouTube, never owned a CD, tape, or record. But my experience is and was still exactly what you describe. My friends and I have countdowns on our phones ticking down the days to eagerly-…

I’m 35 and we grew up with music on the Television. My main CD player was a Play Station. Sometimes a friend brought a new CD over and we listened to it in my room on repeat. We would watch music shows when they were aired on programmed television, or tune into specific radio shows that had “the top 10 popular songs” or something. When we learned about Napster no one had high enough speed internet to download but the most popular songs, but yet we did, and bragged about owning so and so song.

I bet people that were 35 at the time had similar complaints about us not discussing and appreciating music like they did when they were had their mix-tapes playing on their parent’s stereo.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#132

Post by runarberg » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #93

fireattack wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, as soon as people don't claim it sounds "better" I have no issue with it. (The caveat, of course, is that some recordings only release properly mastered version on vinyl. Nothing stops the recording company to release the same version on digital media, they just don't.)

This is a pet peeve of mine, releases that happen only on vinyl (and, with a moment of perversity, cassette). Yes, let's use a medium that degrades with each use. I have resorted to, for those situations where I cannot plead the masters out of the sound engineers, buying the still sealed, unplayed record where available so that it can be converted to digital while it is still pristine.

I play my records like crazy, some are new heavy vinyl, but most is crappy 70s and 80s vinyl. And I have never noticed the supposed drop in quality the usage is supposed to inflict on them. I think the stories might be overblown.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#133

Post by shams93 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #2

I haven't found an objective explanation for why some populations prefer vinyl analog over any digital renditions of a sound. Can anyone share some insight? (I've listened to both, and the description of vinyl or even analog sound as being generally "warmer" never resonated with me.)

People forget that while sure computers are not climate neutral at the same time all the previous media that were used to sell music were straight up petrolium industry products. Like sure Spotify has a big electric bill however we have solar, and wind, both tapes and records require extremely toxic petrolium industry products and processes.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#134

Post by unlinked_dll » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

numpad0 wrote: post #124

cormacrelf wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CD may be 40 years old, but human ears didn't change at all in that time. If you can tell CD from other recordings, it is almost certainly because the mastering (which is not something intrinsic to the standard) was deliberately changed for CD because it could reproduce sound better, so no format-specific mastering hacks were needed to make it sound good. Face it, you don't have golden ears. For example, if a studio…

Did you know: Nyquist sampling theorem assumes, and only applies to, pure sine waves. Apparently this is a novice level knowledge in DSP community at StackExchange: https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/45032/suitable-sampl...

The Shannon-Nyquist theorem doesn't assume or apply just to sines (that's a gross mischaracterization of the proof and it's implications). It assumes ideal samplers and reconstruction filters can exist, which they can't.

In the real world, ADCs and DACs' inherent filtering, noise, and distortion characteristics are quantifiably superior to any analog storage media and reproduction system.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#135

Post by wolrah » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #24

lrem wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manual transmission has clear advantage in responsiveness. Being used to manual, I've just driven an automatic for three days. Despite having 50% more power than my old car, it felt terribly slow because of the gear shift delays.

No, manual transmissions are a clear loser when it comes to responsiveness. You have to manually disengage the clutch, manually change the gear and manually engage the clutch. For comparison, the dual clutch transmission in the Nissan GT-R can shift in 0.15 seconds and that's a 10+ year old car. The ZF 8HP, which is a conventional torque converter transmission used for example in the new BMW M5, is apparently able to…

You're confusing speed with latency. The feeling of "responsiveness" leans a lot harder on the latter than the former.

Even traditional hydraulic planetary automatics, the ones associated with the term "slushbox", have been able to physically change gears faster than most humans could row a manual for a long time. They have a similar advantage to DCTs in that gear changes are just a matter of applying and releasing different clutches, so they can on paper be in the same ballpark at least as far as WOT upshifts go.

The biggest problem manual enthusiasts typically have with automatics has been the downshifts. Most obviously the old-school automatics that had no idea when you might need a downshift until the driver pushes the pedal down harder, but even the more modern ones with "manual" modes. For the most part these are just asking the transmission controller nicely to change gears when it has a moment. The actual gear change itself may take place faster than I could move a stick, but the amount of time between me deciding I want to change gear and the gear actually changing goes in the other direction. Sometimes it won't even let me downshift to a valid gear, many automatics in less sport-inclined vehicles won't downshift unless the engine would still be under 4500 RPM even if they redline north of 6000.

A good DCT is almost there. They still struggle with multi-gear downshifts so a tight corner off a high speed stretch is uncomfortable, but as long as you're going one gear at a time they work great.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#136

Post by twmiller » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #2

I haven't found an objective explanation for why some populations prefer vinyl analog over any digital renditions of a sound. Can anyone share some insight? (I've listened to both, and the description of vinyl or even analog sound as being generally "warmer" never resonated with me.)

I think it’s a combination of the oft spoken ‘ritualization’ that goes along with listening to the medium, along with the fact that modern digital (ie streaming) renditions are inferior. To my ears, a well mastered CD sounds much better than both vinyl and mass streaming, though.

I think there’s also a collecting otaku aspect to it, and among the most hardcore evangelists, a psychological need to justify the amount of money they’ve spent on $30 180 gram reissues and the gear to play them.

I suspect there’s also something going on that’s a value-based reaction to the availability of ‘everything’ on Spotify, etc. I haven’t quite figured it out, but I bet it’s related to vintage computer/console buffs preferring ‘real hardware’ to emulation. If you have to pay more and work harder for something, it’s worth more, even if the cheaper, more easily accessible version is identical (or even superior) to that thing.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#137

Post by sterwill » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

numpad0 wrote: post #105

sterwill wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make any sense. You haven't explained how CD is "terrible"; you just made some comparison to an obsolete digital camera. You put the CD in, press play, and a nearly perfect representation of the source signal with enormous dynamic range and clarity comes out of your DAC. How is this like a 20 year-old digital camera?

Well, at very least, Compact Disc is a 1980 standard... not like 20 years old, more like 40 years old. I don't understand why statement like above is met with a response like yours. It's a shitty '80s format that beat vinyl in affordability, why defend it as if CD is the pinnacle of digital recording technology? It is not, never was. Just say yeah CD sucks you gotta try DSD, and move on. Anecdotal but I feel some sor…

I said your example digital camera was 20 years old ("640x480 prototype camera from 2001"), not the CD format. I used primitive digital cameras in the mid 1990s and CDs in the 1980s so I remember the chronology here.

You still haven't told me why CD is a "shitty" format. The audio quality is essentially perfect for human ears listening to recorded music. With a good DAC you're able to reproduce the source with accuracy well beyond the limits of human hearing. This is an incredible feat for the early 1980s, and I think it's still incredible today! The CD is pretty much the pinnacle of home audio reproduction! You'll want higher sample rates and bit depth for mixing and mastering, but that's for the recording studio.

If you think the compact disc audio standard is deficient in some technical way, back it up with some facts or measurements, not just your feelings about "acoustic odor." It's true that not all CDs are mixed or mastered well, but that's also true for vinyl records. What, specifically is so bad about the CD?

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#138

Post by Symbiote » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 6:18 PM UTC

yokaze wrote: post #11

eganist wrote: post #2

I haven't found an objective explanation for why some populations prefer vinyl analog over any digital renditions of a sound. Can anyone share some insight? (I've listened to both, and the description of vinyl or even analog sound as being generally "warmer" never resonated with me.)

To my knowledge, in small volumes vinyl is cheaper to produce than CDs. So, if you want to get a physical medium, it might be the only choice.

In extremely small volumes, CDs are very cheap. Bands just burn CD-Rs.

Digital files are even cheaper.

I doubt vinyl is cheaper at any scale. At least in the UK, 250 packaged CDs are 60% of the cost of 250 unpacked vinyls.

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#139

Post by some-guy » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

numpad0 wrote: post #80

cormacrelf wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only one item on your list faithfully follows the soundwaves. The rest are inaccurate in their own unique way. Microphones throw out sound you don't want. The entire cutting needle thing has some pretty fundamental accuracy limits. The record player introduces all kinds of distortion, my favourite being the 'wow' of a motor turning at an inconsistent speed, causing minor fluctuations in pitch. The speakers, if they w…

In defense of vinyl, real good vinyl setup sounds just like CD, only better. (said this in another tree but: my understanding is CD sucks among digital formats , not necessarily vinyl rocks.)

How does CD suck among digital formats (at least, from a sound quality perspective)?

For what it's worth, I am a member of a private music tracker and there are plenty of vinyl rips available. I've found that in many cases, the vinyl rips (which are digital files, by the way) sound better than the CD. This isn't because a) vinyl is better and b) CDs suck, it's because the CD masters in many cases compress the audio more and there's less dynamic range. Ironically, CDs have a lot more dynamic range than vinyl!

Re: Manufacturing plant fire threatens worldwide vinyl record supply

#140

Post by MeltySmelty » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #2

I haven't found an objective explanation for why some populations prefer vinyl analog over any digital renditions of a sound. Can anyone share some insight? (I've listened to both, and the description of vinyl or even analog sound as being generally "warmer" never resonated with me.)

it's nostalgia and very thick rose colored glasses. it is infinitely inferior to digital media.

with a little bit of hipster sprinkled in.