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DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

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Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm willing to have an earnest, extended conversation with you. On the other hand, you are immediately unwilling to personally support the basic premise of your proposed argument. This is very curious; perhaps you are a dishonest actor with a knowingly unsound argument. (This is my natural and rational suspicion, please take no offense!)

Yes, as my posting history clearly indicates, I'm a schill for voting rights and equal representation.

Me too, except the venue your personal household and the representation in the heart of your wife, whom I consider an attractive upgrade to mine.

Or are there conditions here you're omitting that distinguish heroism from banditry? I say I am entitled to my franchise, sir!

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#72
post #6

Paper and pencils please.

The discussion over paper vs. electronic ballots tends to miss many of the largest issues in election security. DHS is correct in pointing out that we need a focus on the larger landscape of election support infrastructure. Notably, electronic pollbooks are a very important part of the voting system which cannot readily be replaced with a non-digital solution. Simply switching to paper ballots reduces the problem, bu…

Hand tallying of paper is used in Australia and works quite well. Sure, elections are expensive, but any change of government is. Better to do it once properly, than have an entire administration plagued by tampering accusations.

It also creates great temp jobs. Whenever there is an election the AEC (Australian Electoral Commission) puts out ads for jobs on the day. The requirements (and they check this!) are that you cannot be affiliated with a party, and cannot have a public history of being involved in politics etc. You get paid a great casual hourly rate, and you can either by a polling official on the day (usher, handing out ballots), or a vote counter at night. Or if you've done it before you can be a supervisor. Each political party is allowed to appoint one scrutineer to watch the counting per-polling place to make sure that it is fair. To my knowledge there has never been an accusation of cheating or tampering in this system.

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#73
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe is not that different from Australia's preferential system afaict, aside from people at one district potentially having different ballots. Australian ballots are not always simple, and you vote for your local representative so each district has a different one. Often you will have multiple ballots to complete, and some have the choice between above or below the line voting (where above you select so…

Australia is always a curveball! I've wondered how a precinct counts those ballots, especially if some people vote below the line. I hope someone with experience comments here.

You don't have to wonder, the counting process is well documented! :)

https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/counting/

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion over paper vs. electronic ballots tends to miss many of the largest issues in election security. DHS is correct in pointing out that we need a focus on the larger landscape of election support infrastructure. Notably, electronic pollbooks are a very important part of the voting system which cannot readily be replaced with a non-digital solution. Simply switching to paper ballots reduces the problem, bu…

Hand tallying of paper is used in Australia and works quite well. Sure, elections are expensive, but any change of government is. Better to do it once properly, than have an entire administration plagued by tampering accusations. It also creates great temp jobs. Whenever there is an election the AEC (Australian Electoral Commission) puts out ads for jobs on the day. The requirements (and they check this!) are that yo…

Hand-counting certainly is possible, and there are places in the US where it is still the regular process. However, besides the high cost of bringing on a sufficient number of temp employees (additionally complicated by the typical requirements that ballots be counted under supervision of both major parties), it's a real concern on the mind of election officials that hand counting is appreciably less accurate than automated tabulation. It's possible to multiply count ballots (e.g. count each batch twice and average results) but the general attitude is that ballot counts must be absolutely correct and any discrepancy prompts a complete recount. This results in a need to have each ballot individually entered by two people and compared one-for-one... the process is quite time consuming even for the relatively small number of ballots that are hand-counted in this jurisdiction due to damage that prevents the tabulators accepting them.

Finally, there is the simple problem that the voter is not able to see their ballot tabulated "before their eyes," which is standard enough in most US jurisdictions that voters can get frustrated or worried if it isn't the case (e.g. due to a provisional ballot where the registration must be investigated before it can be tabulated, something that is thankfully becoming uncommon due to same-day voter registration). Once you're used to casting your ballot and "waiting for the ding and green light," it's a bit worrying to see it just stuffed in a canvas pouch.

This definitely isn't a problem that can't be overcome, but I think to some extent comes down to the culture of election administration, which is that everything must be absolutely correct to the individual ballot, and as much as possible should be done directly in the polling place (since that's where most of the independent observers/challengers/scrutineers are located).

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#75
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>How is it not efficient? It is not efficient for the people voting. More than 1 election I simply skipped because I did not want to find my polling place, stand in line, and then vote I want a Polling Place free Voting system

There are really easy solutions to this that other countries use, while keeping the safe and simple paper ballots. They have many polling places, enough that queues aren’t more than a few minutes at the most. They don’t make the polling places deliberately hard to get to. They hold elections on a weekend or a public holiday so the flow evens out over the course of the whole day.

It is important to keep in mind that using what is often called a "voting convenience center" model where a voter can appear at any precinct instead of only their own precinct essentially requires the use of a computerized pollbook, since the pollbook needs to be kept in sync across all locations to prevent double-voting at two locations. This isn't much of a difference since computer pollbooks are already nearly universal, but the computer pollbook is a risk surface for election interference that's largely overlooked by the public discussion - I think it's a major mistake that the public discussion focuses essentially only on the voting tabulation itself when often the supporting systems (pollbook, election management system, communications) are far more poorly secured. Defects in them tend to be easier to detect since there is less of an element of secrecy, but consider the chaos that could be caused by a malicious actor simply taking the pollbook offline, or the subtle manipulation that might go unnoticed if a malicious actor gained access to the pollbook and invalidated the voter registrations of people in an area and demographic making them likely to vote for a particular party... if the right number of people were chosen, you might be able to influence the outcome of the election without invalidating so many people's registrations that the election administrator can't wave it off as people who thought they were registered and weren't. This could be especially effective if you targeted an economically disadvantaged group which tend to have a harder time with their voter registrations anyway due to frequent address changes.

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#76
post #65
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK and Canada are parliamentary systems so most ballots are one page. Most of those are just a single question with one selection permitted. In the US the ballot I get in my polling place depends on where I live and sometimes what party I am registered with. My ballot will likely be different than the next person in line. That ballot is many pages with numerous questions per page. And for about half of the questions…

In Canada voters at the same polling place get the same ballot only because there are enough polling places that local district seats will always be larger than polling catchment areas. Last election I walked into my polling place six minutes before my bus was supposed to arrive right out front and caught my bus. Skimping on costs when it comes to elections is pretty silly - it makes sense to make sure there isn't ra…

In the US voting occurs during a workday and so there is a significant push towards 'voting convenience' or 'non-precinct voting' where a voter may appear at any polling place instead of only at their designated precinct. This is a huge advantage for voters but requires that ballots be either selected from a large supply or printed on-site for each voter. This effectively requires the use of a computerized pollbook.

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just propaganda based on speculation about what the "other side" intends with voter ID laws. People want voter ID laws so that non citizens can't vote. This is the reason why many developed countries around the world have some form of voter ID.

Some Republicans Acknowledge Leveraging Voter ID Laws for Political Gain https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno...

Of course the desires of a few obscure people are irrelevant to the actual merits of voter ID. There are some Democrats who support immigration because they hate white people and want to "Brown" the country. Does that mean immigration is automatically a bad thing? Of course not.

Policies must be judged on their merits, not the reasons people support them.

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#78
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia is always a curveball! I've wondered how a precinct counts those ballots, especially if some people vote below the line. I hope someone with experience comments here.

You don't have to wonder, the counting process is well documented! :) https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/counting/

Thanks, I'm still confused but it seems in essence before counting they make an educated guess of the two likely winners and first count with that in mind and only do a more complicated tally if it ends-up mathematically possible for one of the others to still come-out on top.

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#79

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYVLH1tLIDY They should start with Rand Waltzman's presentation at DEFCON (link above). In sum, USGOV is still totally unprepared for information warfare ops ongoing and intended. About 1/2 through this video the content is the best I've ever watched from DEFCON, period.

Great video, thanks! I have one question:

There's a part where Rand says he was asked to provide questions for the congressional Facebook hearing. He said he was shocked when his questions were not used and instead "stupid" questions were asked. I'm not sure if he meant this sarcastically or not, but isn't it clear, especially to someone like Rand being an expert in disinformation and related areas, that the questions were likely deliberately not asked? I'm not sure why he was shocked.

Re: DHS plans urgently needed to address identified challenges before 2020 elections [pdf]

#80

when viewed from a sludge-money lens (a la the F35) electronic voting and election security seem largely working as intended: - we know paper works (Canada/UK) so there must be an ulterior motive for pushing on tech solution so hard - money gets sent to various entities under the guise of tech, security, freedom, etc. (contracts for voting machines, contracts for software, etc.). this basically gives some limited air…

Introduction of electronic voting in the US was primarily motivated by the Help America Vote Act of 2002 which required that election authorities more effectively accommodate the needs of voters with sensory and mobility needs. Previously used election methods were generally inoperable by individuals with such disabilities unless they had a second person enter their votes for them, which is considered a compromise of…

Ha. Yeah, they always come up with some Real Plausible Explanation for the things that they do, and the naive types always buy it.

Here's the reality: the electronic voting systems are being put in place because they are so easily hackable.

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