Using Real Names has Real Consequences • Hacker News Board

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#31

Post by loewenskind » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 8:06 AM UTC

evgen wrote: post #27

vacri wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real names attached to unpopular commentary = danger. For example, if you're in a conservative town and you're using your real name while arguing for civil rights for homosexuals, you might draw nutcases tracking you down and harrassing you for your simple viewpoints instead of engaging you in the medium you participated in. This isn't a matter of not owning what you say, but a matter of putting a layer of insulation…

Pseudonyms may be a social firewall, but they also cheapen discourse because there is no consequence attached to speech. It may "put a layer of insulation between yourself and immature idiots", but it also is what allows those immature idiots to flourish in the first place. Communities like HN are far and away a minority on the net and a quick bounce through 4chan will show you just what speech without consequences l…

If you don't have speech without consequences then there will always be things that need to be said that can't be.

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#32

Post by pyre » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 8:45 AM UTC

evgen wrote: post #27

vacri wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real names attached to unpopular commentary = danger. For example, if you're in a conservative town and you're using your real name while arguing for civil rights for homosexuals, you might draw nutcases tracking you down and harrassing you for your simple viewpoints instead of engaging you in the medium you participated in. This isn't a matter of not owning what you say, but a matter of putting a layer of insulation…

Pseudonyms may be a social firewall, but they also cheapen discourse because there is no consequence attached to speech. It may "put a layer of insulation between yourself and immature idiots", but it also is what allows those immature idiots to flourish in the first place. Communities like HN are far and away a minority on the net and a quick bounce through 4chan will show you just what speech without consequences l…

4chan has many boards, /b/ is the only one that is obnoxious. The other boards also have anonymity, yet they don't have the same level of obnoxiousness. This is because 4chan started out as a board with a bunch of obnoxious idiots on it, and /b/ was the place were they were 'allowed' the let loose. As the site gained in popularity, this obviously 'blossomed' as more and more people joined and participated in the pre-existing culture.

To say that anonymity breeds obnoxiousness baseless, especially since there is anonymity all over the web, yet 4chan is the example that everyone loves to use. Where are the other examples? What about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futaba_Channel or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel (4chan's inspiration)? It also provides anonymity.

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#33

Post by bandushrew » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 9:01 AM UTC

Zakharov wrote: post #28

There are four levels of anonymity on the Internet 1) Complete anonymitiy, e.g. 4chan - there's either no name, or it's trivially easy to change one's name. This removes any consequences from what you write, and hence often results in immature discussions. 2) Pseudononymity, e.g. HN - your writings are connected to an account, but that account isn't linked to any real-world person. People who spend a lot of time buil…

On 'average' nobody in the history of humanity has ever said a thing worth opening their mouths for.

places like 4chan are full of banality, sure, but the extremes are far higher (and lower) than you find on somewhere like HN.

Ive read stuff on 4chan/b that has made me piss myself with laughter, and cry (well, nearly, Im not a crying man, but the spirit was there). Ive read stuff on 4chan that provided amazing insight into the human soul....and stuff that made me realise what a bunch of animals we really are.

HN certainly does away with the banal posts (and the illegal ones) but the cost is obvious, and real.

I choose the times I go to 4chan (very rarely, these days) and I choose the times I go to HN, but they do both have a place.

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#34

Post by route66 » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 9:05 AM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #11

steerpike wrote: post #2

I have pretty strong negative reaction to this push for more and more sites to demand a real name for signup and I'm not sure if it's a product of my internet usage history or if I actually have a valid gripe. I think it's fundamentally important that as a general principle the internet allows a person to play many parts and to play those parts under discreet, consistent personae if required. The most basic example b…

I haven't really seen a great deal of 'push back' against the practice. What exactly happens if one uses a pseudonym at Facebook or Quora? Does Big Brother come to drag you off to Room 101? Perhaps few people bother to push back against the Real Name policies because there's nothing much to push against. If I decide to use a pseudonym, I doubt that a site would rush to stop me: Better a user with a non-"real" name th…

http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/14/quora-to-oddly-named-users-... is, what happens if you use your real name on quora...

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#35

Post by vacri » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 9:18 AM UTC

evgen wrote: post #27

vacri wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real names attached to unpopular commentary = danger. For example, if you're in a conservative town and you're using your real name while arguing for civil rights for homosexuals, you might draw nutcases tracking you down and harrassing you for your simple viewpoints instead of engaging you in the medium you participated in. This isn't a matter of not owning what you say, but a matter of putting a layer of insulation…

Pseudonyms may be a social firewall, but they also cheapen discourse because there is no consequence attached to speech. It may "put a layer of insulation between yourself and immature idiots", but it also is what allows those immature idiots to flourish in the first place. Communities like HN are far and away a minority on the net and a quick bounce through 4chan will show you just what speech without consequences l…

The benefits to pseudonyms /far/ outwiegh the penalties.

As pyre has already said, 4chan's b channel is a force unto itself, but there are plenty of other places with no consequences where the speech is fine and isn't the devolved miasma you make it out to be.

Pseudonyms also protect people against unwarranted discrimination. I speak as a white male with a white male name that it's fucking awesome being a white male. But I have observed those who aren't white males get subtley (and sometimes not so) discriminated against online. Check out /any/ tech post where a commenter with an Indian name takes part. Unless the Indian is well known, there's bias against their comments. Same goes for women - if the discussion is outside the 'women's sphere', watch the subtleties as some of the men close ranks. Get an openly-declared woman involved in a discussion on physics in a general forum and she won't be treated as an equal.

People should be judged on what they say, not how their name slips hints about their background. To that end, a pseudonym greatly levels the playing field.

A name, pseudonym or otherwise, merely defines a body of work, and humans are complex creatures with interests in different areas. Why should we throw away the awesome things pseduonyms do for us simply because of internet trolls - which have other effective ways of dealing with them anyway (user moderation >>> unprovable 'real name' requirement)

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#36

Post by whatusername » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 10:01 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #26

coderdude wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are always going to be a few bad eggs out there that would just assume hurt people's real lives in order to satisfy some kind of Internet justice. It's a shame really. I prefer a handle to using my real name but even in my about and on whatever I create you can find my name on it. Check out my whois to see where I live! It's a risk I've learned to deal with as part of life as a contributing netizen.

Speaking of whois, I'm really glad I don't get the quantity of whois-based junk mail I used to see with the domain I registered ~10 years ago. That's one category of spam that seems to have improved over time. P.S. It's a nitpick, but "just assume" should be "just as soon."

Do you get the Domain Registrar of America renewal letters? (Or whatever they are called). Or is that just something sent to us rubes in the colonies.

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#37

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 10:28 AM UTC

whatusername wrote: post #36

nitrogen wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of whois, I'm really glad I don't get the quantity of whois-based junk mail I used to see with the domain I registered ~10 years ago. That's one category of spam that seems to have improved over time. P.S. It's a nitpick, but "just assume" should be "just as soon."

Do you get the Domain Registrar of America renewal letters? (Or whatever they are called). Or is that just something sent to us rubes in the colonies.

I always try to renew my domains months in advance, so it's possible I've been missing out on those letters for the last few cycles. I used to get a lot more than that though. It's been a long time, but I seem to remember getting daily junk mail sent to the exact contact info I used on a domain registration and nowhere else. I believe the registrars implemented new policies on whois that helped with that, but again, it's been a decade so my memory is foggy.

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#38

Post by fwdbureau » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 10:36 AM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #24

mechanical_fish wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't really seen a great deal of 'push back' against the practice. What exactly happens if one uses a pseudonym at Facebook or Quora? Does Big Brother come to drag you off to Room 101? Perhaps few people bother to push back against the Real Name policies because there's nothing much to push against. If I decide to use a pseudonym, I doubt that a site would rush to stop me: Better a user with a non-"real" name th…

My wife tried making a pseudonym Facebook account for helping me test FB integration on my site... Facebook refused to let her create an account with the name "Peaches Gnome" Anyone out there who is actually named Peaches Gnome will need to prove it to Facebook. Imagine the troubles that the Zappa kids go through.

I did the same thing two days ago for the exact same reason, with the name "Aleph Zadik", and it worked like a charm. Is there a human being deciding what looks like a real name or not, or is it algorithm-based?

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#39

Post by gaius » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 11:12 AM UTC

fwdbureau wrote: post #38

MartinCron wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife tried making a pseudonym Facebook account for helping me test FB integration on my site... Facebook refused to let her create an account with the name "Peaches Gnome" Anyone out there who is actually named Peaches Gnome will need to prove it to Facebook. Imagine the troubles that the Zappa kids go through.

I did the same thing two days ago for the exact same reason, with the name "Aleph Zadik", and it worked like a charm. Is there a human being deciding what looks like a real name or not, or is it algorithm-based?

FB started out when you had to give your "official" email address to sign up, which would usually be firstname.lastname@university.ac.uk (or .edu for Americans).

People who insist on using their "handles" are hankering back to the world where online and offline lives were mainly seperate. That just isn't true any more, it's as if you used a fake name in the phone book and wondered why no-one called...

Re: Using Real Names has Real Consequences

#40

Post by camtarn » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 11:20 AM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #17

As the only person commenting here so far using my full name as my HN handle, I'll agree that there's a big difference in how one acts when using one's real name than under a pseudonym (even one based on your full name). I only maintain the habit because of my journalistic background - bylines are like gold-dust to me, even if they're on HN ;-) In my case, I back away from "crazies" and flamewars pretty quickly, rema…

The strange thing for me is that my name is a very common one, but my handle is more or less unique. I hand out my personal email address which incorporates my handle, so I'm very easy to Google when using it.

By comparison, if I used my real name, I would be practically anonymous, drowned in the sea of other people using my name, including a well-known footballer and a journalist, both of whom generate huge numbers of search hits.