Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

UpCounsel Shutting Down

upcounsel.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 30 posts

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#21

Post by jfengel »

gumby wrote: post #11
nihonde wrote: post #5

Silicon Valley has consistently failed to disrupt legal markets, not just because lawyers are a protectionist guild, but also because clients seem to want to overpay. It’s a pathology that has something to do with the idea that the higher cost is worthwhile. As a lawyer who has been both a BigLaw attorney and in-house counsel, I find the premise that name brand law firms are worth their fees to be totally wrong. The…

I think the customers don't know how to use legal counsel and somehow don't want to learn. I agree it's bizarre. I have used Gunderson Dettmer since they started (was before that one of VLG's first accounts) and have very low legal bills. But I know when to use them and when not to. And when a partner is needed (almost never) and when I can get as good or better from an associate. Another weird thing is that many cus…

I really hope I never have to learn how to use legal counsel.

Businesses, of course, have to, but even there it's hard. How does one "shop around" for a lawyer? On what basis can I judge whether somebody is sufficiently smart, hard working, and experienced in the domains I will require?

If I had to do it every day, I'd learn through a series of mistakes. In fact, that's basically what I have done, on the few occasions I've needed a lawyer -- I'm pretty sure I've gotten poor-quality work, but even now I don't really know. I know that I'm not happy with the results in every case, but I have no idea if a different lawyer would have done better.

That has mostly left me really hoping I never need an attorney for my personal life. Which I will, some day -- and suspect my heirs will complain about my choice.

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#22

Post by smallgovt »

tnolet wrote: post #13

- "journey": check - "humbled, honored": check - complete shutdown - no context on what, why, and how it happened: check. This is a sour post, sorry for that. Startups are hard, no question about that. But as mentioned elsewhere, this type of posts just adds more damage and unclarity to a situation that is probably pretty dramatic for the founders, customer and employees.

I think it's worth noting that non-company stakeholders like myself are in no way owed an explanation of why this happened.

As you alluded to, shutting down a startup is a tremendously stressful experience for founders and management. Their top priority is doing right by their customers, employees, and investors. Doing a proper post mortem for the public, in my opinion, is far down on the priority list, and I'm fine with that.

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#23

Post by DominiBouch »

So I started legal tech myself and am familiar with Upcounsel.

They struggled to build a sustainable network effect in their marketplace due to regulation (split fee is prohibited) and business model. Regulation deterred lots of lawyer to join in fear of losing their licence (despite the fact they already had a significant number) and thus increasing CAC of acquiring supply.

Second, legal service are very punctual (dont need them often) which mean its a low frquency purchase which again increase CAC.

Competion with traditional law firm on top of it didnt help. In marketplace you need absolutely a community that fuel word of mouth and network effect but in this case lawyer just couldnt rally as much as they wanted (regulation).

good idea, good founders, good product (yes there was some bad reviews but nothing out of the ordinary for an online marketplace/or any business) but in the end, business model didnt work. Avvo had similar issue and closed one of their product. Looking forward to their next startup.

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#24

Post by Keverw »

throw03172019 wrote: post #2

Ads all over a startup blog. Hrmm.

Yep, I thought that was odd too. I wonder if they always had ads or trying to milk the news they are shutting down?

I kinda always felt ads on a business blog was kinda unprofessional unless you had a general tech/news type blog or the ads on your business blog is for your own products/sponsors/community, etc instead of general unrelated third party ads.

Also I guess another flaw of using ad networks for your own company blog, someone could pay money to display ads for their competitors product on their competitors websites.

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#25

Post by gumby »

jfengel wrote: post #21
gumby wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the customers don't know how to use legal counsel and somehow don't want to learn. I agree it's bizarre. I have used Gunderson Dettmer since they started (was before that one of VLG's first accounts) and have very low legal bills. But I know when to use them and when not to. And when a partner is needed (almost never) and when I can get as good or better from an associate. Another weird thing is that many cus…

I really hope I never have to learn how to use legal counsel. Businesses, of course, have to, but even there it's hard. How does one "shop around" for a lawyer? On what basis can I judge whether somebody is sufficiently smart, hard working, and experienced in the domains I will require? If I had to do it every day, I'd learn through a series of mistakes. In fact, that's basically what I have done, on the few occasion…

You should meet a friendly lawyer (perhaps an ex classmate who went to law school) and have them "show you the ropes". There's a ton of unnecessary crap that customers (err, "clients") ask for or could and should do themselves.

And there are places lawyers can help a lot (hint: typically not business decisions).

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#26

Post by elpakal »

gumby wrote: post #25
jfengel wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope I never have to learn how to use legal counsel. Businesses, of course, have to, but even there it's hard. How does one "shop around" for a lawyer? On what basis can I judge whether somebody is sufficiently smart, hard working, and experienced in the domains I will require? If I had to do it every day, I'd learn through a series of mistakes. In fact, that's basically what I have done, on the few occasion…

You should meet a friendly lawyer (perhaps an ex classmate who went to law school) and have them "show you the ropes". There's a ton of unnecessary crap that customers (err, "clients") ask for or could and should do themselves. And there are places lawyers can help a lot (hint: typically not business decisions).

hijacking this to show off something my lawyer friend and I are working on (we’re in YC startup school now). we both agree with some of the comments in this thread. this is a lite landing page but we have mvp almost complete: https://thecaseyak.com/

It’s a ML backed plugin that helps injured people receive a data backed case estimate for a personal injury claim, and law firms receive leads with the data backed case value (it’s also available in Spanish and fully accessible).

We’re looking for beta testers right now - if anyone is in the PI law world and wants to try it out, let us know!

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#28

Post by nihonde »

c0restraint wrote: post #18
nihonde wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. I’ve spent too much time behind the scenes to fall for that anymore. Can you imagine trying to sue a global law firm for malpractice? Are you aware that everything gets pushed down to the lowest, least experienced associate because that’s built into the business model? Some firms are better than others, but I just simply don’t trust a…

> I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. That’s not what the previous person said. People just think they’re paying a premium to get it done right, when as you point out, price is uncorrelated to correctness

Yes, I suppose I was responding to the person GP was describing. I should have been more clear.

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#29

Post by nihonde »

manigandham wrote: post #19
nihonde wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. I’ve spent too much time behind the scenes to fall for that anymore. Can you imagine trying to sue a global law firm for malpractice? Are you aware that everything gets pushed down to the lowest, least experienced associate because that’s built into the business model? Some firms are better than others, but I just simply don’t trust a…

Yes, my point is that people prefer the bigger names because it comes with a better perception of quality and general guarantee that they'll be around in case something goes wrong.

Yes I agree that people think that. And I think they’re wrong, for a bunch of reasons.

Re: UpCounsel Shutting Down

#30

Post by nihonde »

jiveturkey wrote: post #20
nihonde wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy into the idea that big law firms are more accountable than anyone else. I’ve spent too much time behind the scenes to fall for that anymore. Can you imagine trying to sue a global law firm for malpractice? Are you aware that everything gets pushed down to the lowest, least experienced associate because that’s built into the business model? Some firms are better than others, but I just simply don’t trust a…

> I don’t buy into the idea ... You are failing to put yourself into the customer's shoes. Maybe you don't buy into it, but clearly customers do. I don't know what the legal disruptor market strategy is, but going on what you've said, they shouldn't be differentiating on price. Rather, use reputation against the incumbents, somehow.

I’ve been the customer for as long as I was the “seller”. I’m saying that the customers are getting bamboozled and they ought to know better. The incentives are all backward.

To be super clear: I support disruptors in this space. My gripe is with customer/clients that are holding change back for reasons that are against their own best interests.

Post reply on HN